Author Topic: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"  (Read 1642 times)

Offline swareiam

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Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2020, 09:50:52 AM »
Due to the Thanksgiving holiday assignments will be posted tonight.

Make sure that your preferences have been updated.

Thanks!

 :salute
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Offline Mako-

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Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2020, 10:09:49 AM »
That must be cool.

It's a first so pretty excited about this one
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Offline SpinDoc1

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Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2020, 08:48:14 AM »
Loving this setup. I had a blast flying in "To the Winter Sky" this summer, the ground attack objectives made it a heck of a lot of fun!
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Offline Devil 505

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Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2020, 09:55:44 PM »
I have some major misgivings about the rule set and objectives for this event. I was hoping that others would post about what seems like some obvious problems, but here I am as the lone voice. Hate to be "that guy" but someone needs to be.

The threshold for an Allied victory is way too easy to meet. How do you really expect the Axis to possibly compete in this event? Remember, this is an all-or-nothing victory condition, so in order to compete a side must have a reasonable ability to win. I just don't see it for the Axis.

You have B-26's and A-20's with the possibility of bomb-laden Jugs and P-38's. All that potential ordnance is tasked with white-flagging a single town, and destroying the radar tower, eight bunkers, and the vehicle hangar at a single base. That's an easy bar to meet in most FSO's where there's multiple targets and you designated only one target for this one. To be honest, I just assumed there was to be more than one target - until the objectives were Emailed showing just the one.

To make matters worse, there's the matter of the target base for Frame 1. A135 is only 4 miles closer to the nearest Axis base than it is to the nearest Allied one. With their speed advantages, this means that the Allies can potentially arrive at the target with heavy fighters before the defenders can. I tested the direct routes with a P-38L with 75% fuel and bombs against a 190A-5 with only 75% fuel and no DT. The 190 arrived over A135 only 1 minute sooner than the 38 - bombs out in 18 minutes. With a droptank, the 190 arrives after the 38 attacked.

But why take a droptank, you ask? Because the usual T+60 rule has been replaced with a T+75 rule. This gives the Allies a realistic window of 57 minutes to attack which the Axis have to be prepared for. The T+75 limit only makes sense if the targets are too far to fairly allow the attackers an attack before T+60. In this case, the Allies can attack 40 minutes before the usual limit. That's plenty of flexibility. The extended limit should not have been applied in frame 1.

I reiterate, how exactly do the Axis have a realistic chance to win?


The timing of this post is wholly intentional. Changes won't be made after the objective were released and this designer does not respond well to criticism in the first place. So this post does not serve as a call for changes so much as an "I told you so" for when tonight's frame becomes the inevitable dumpster fire.
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Offline Chris79

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Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2020, 11:01:00 PM »


Chuikov

Offline RichardDarkwood

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Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2020, 12:00:39 AM »
I have some major misgivings about the rule set and objectives for this event. I was hoping that others would post about what seems like some obvious problems, but here I am as the lone voice. Hate to be "that guy" but someone needs to be.

The threshold for an Allied victory is way too easy to meet. How do you really expect the Axis to possibly compete in this event? Remember, this is an all-or-nothing victory condition, so in order to compete a side must have a reasonable ability to win. I just don't see it for the Axis.

You have B-26's and A-20's with the possibility of bomb-laden Jugs and P-38's. All that potential ordnance is tasked with white-flagging a single town, and destroying the radar tower, eight bunkers, and the vehicle hangar at a single base. That's an easy bar to meet in most FSO's where there's multiple targets and you designated only one target for this one. To be honest, I just assumed there was to be more than one target - until the objectives were Emailed showing just the one.

To make matters worse, there's the matter of the target base for Frame 1. A135 is only 4 miles closer to the nearest Axis base than it is to the nearest Allied one. With their speed advantages, this means that the Allies can potentially arrive at the target with heavy fighters before the defenders can. I tested the direct routes with a P-38L with 75% fuel and bombs against a 190A-5 with only 75% fuel and no DT. The 190 arrived over A135 only 1 minute sooner than the 38 - bombs out in 18 minutes. With a droptank, the 190 arrives after the 38 attacked.

But why take a droptank, you ask? Because the usual T+60 rule has been replaced with a T+75 rule. This gives the Allies a realistic window of 57 minutes to attack which the Axis have to be prepared for. The T+75 limit only makes sense if the targets are too far to fairly allow the attackers an attack before T+60. In this case, the Allies can attack 40 minutes before the usual limit. That's plenty of flexibility. The extended limit should not have been applied in frame 1.

I reiterate, how exactly do the Axis have a realistic chance to win?


The timing of this post is wholly intentional. Changes won't be made after the objective were released and this designer does not respond well to criticism in the first place. So this post does not serve as a call for changes so much as an "I told you so" for when tonight's frame becomes the inevitable dumpster fire.

After frame 1 I really don't have nothing to add to what Devil typed above.

Spot on Devil
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That's a RAID!!!

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Offline Arlo

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Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2020, 02:57:06 AM »


Sometimes the odds are against you and you're losing the war. Give it your all, anyway. You know, like when the other side has a bunch of jets and rocket planes.




Offline perdue3

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Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2020, 09:07:32 AM »
(Image removed from quote.)

Sometimes the odds are against you and you're losing the war. Give it your all, anyway. You know, like when the other side has a bunch of jets and rocket planes.

(Image removed from quote.)

In October of 1944, what were the numbers? How many aircraft dod the Luftwaffe have and how many did the Americans have in Europe? This has nothing to do with the event.
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Offline Arlo

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Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2020, 09:24:42 AM »
In October of 1944, what were the numbers? How many aircraft dod the Luftwaffe have and how many did the Americans have in Europe? This has nothing to do with the event.

There's the spirit! Buck up, chin up, fight valiantly. :)

Offline Devil 505

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Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2020, 09:48:06 AM »
(Image removed from quote.)

Sometimes the odds are against you and you're losing the war. Give it your all, anyway. You know, like when the other side has a bunch of jets and rocket planes.

(Image removed from quote.)

Did you even read my post? I never once mentioned plane or number balance. They are non-issues in this case. My criticisms are entirely about objectives, target selection, and making an attempt to create an event where both sides can win.
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Offline Arlo

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Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2020, 10:14:38 AM »
Did you even read my post? I never once mentioned plane or number balance. They are non-issues in this case. My criticisms are entirely about objectives, target selection, and making an attempt to create an event where both sides can win.

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Offline RufusLeaking

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Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2020, 08:35:08 PM »
The threshold for an Allied victory is way too easy to meet. How do you really expect the Axis to possibly compete in this event? Remember, this is an all-or-nothing victory condition, so in order to compete a side must have a reasonable ability to win. I just don't see it for the Axis.


I was CiC for the Axis. It was my "plan" that contributed to the debacle. Credit also goes to Allies good plan. But, there may be a balance issue.

A-20s flashed the field before the forward screen even got into place. Diving P-47s are unstoppable once over target. P-51D escorts also outperformed Axis airframes.

The frame was over in 40 minutes. Once the frame was lost, Axis guys were towering out.

Solution? Maybe Doras. Closer Axis launch fields. P-51Bs. B-25s. Bostons.
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Offline Devil 505

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Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2020, 08:52:58 PM »
I was CiC for the Axis. It was my "plan" that contributed to the debacle. Credit also goes to Allies good plan. But, there may be a balance issue.

A-20s flashed the field before the forward screen even got into place. Diving P-47s are unstoppable once over target. P-51D escorts also outperformed Axis airframes.

The frame was over in 40 minutes. Once the frame was lost, Axis guys were towering out.

My point is that there was nothing you could have done with your plan that would have avoided a debacle. Good plan or bad, the result is exactly the same - Allies win easily.
Kommando Nowotny

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Offline Spikes

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Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2020, 11:24:41 PM »
My point is that there was nothing you could have done with your plan that would have avoided a debacle. Good plan or bad, the result is exactly the same - Allies win easily.
Perhaps that is an element of the design. Based on the Frame 2 objectives, by Frame 3, it looks like a much taller task for the Allies.
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Offline Devil 505

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Re: FSO December - D-DAY "White Flag"
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2020, 11:37:15 PM »
Perhaps that is an element of the design. Based on the Frame 2 objectives, by Frame 3, it looks like a much taller task for the Allies.

Based on what besides the target base being farther away?

Even if it was intentional, that still glosses over all the other problems I outlined, which apply regardless of target location.

And even if A135 was selected as the frame 1 target as some sort of grand plan, that does not change the fact that it's a frame crippling decision.

Does not matter if it's by ignorance or incompetence; either way, it's a major screw up.  An attacking force should never have the ability to arrive at a target before the defenders can.
Kommando Nowotny

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