Author Topic: Something you won't find in your mainstream media  (Read 53124 times)

Offline guncrasher

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Re: Something you won't find in your mainstream media
« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2022, 09:34:04 PM »
all rifles have selective fire.  even the ar15.



semp

just gonna leave it at this.  it's just a term that is meaningless.  like law abiding citizen.  by definition a law abiding citizen does not break any laws.  do you know anybody that has not broken any laws?  I sure dont, myself included.  we just like to think we are because the laws we broke arent really that important.  so that makes us law abiding citizens.  I get a laugh out of the term law abiding citizen.  nobody is.  we arent criminals either in the sense that we dont, murder, rob and pillage.  but in your strict definition of what an assault weapon is, we arent totally law abiding are we?

 :salute


semp
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Something you won't find in your mainstream media
« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2022, 11:46:58 PM »
Selective fire makes it an assault rifle as far as the term has any real meaning. The M-16, now the M4, is the military selective fire version of the pre-existing civilian modern sporting rifle by Armalite.

Firing an intemediate cartridge in a sustainably controllable way at short range in addition to reasonably accurate fire out to the practical combat range limit of say 400-metres is the definition of an assault rifle. Why is debating technical terms useful beyond a deliberate procrastination or confusion strategy.

The AR-10 was developed in response to a direct invitation to Armalite to compete for the new combat rifle for US military forces. Those design principals therien developed lead directly to the M-16 platform.


The answer is to punish the people with murderous intent. The worse the punishment the better. Taking guns from law abiding folks is not the answer. Make the criminal pay dearly.

Unfortunately even guaranteed, flawless punishment does not deter murderous crime in the case of mass shootings where the shooter is already resigned to suicide or a fatal face off with armed police. Additionally if you read some accounts of heated, violent encounters which have ended in serious injury or death you'll notice the theme of considering the consequences of your actions is absent: "There was a kitchen knife in my hand. I don't know where it came from. Suddenly it was sticking out of his chest" etc. etc.

So-far the proposed solutions seem to be guns are innocent and people should not malfunction - in a (global, by-the-way, not confined to the US) society which observably makes a pretty good job of creating those 'malfunctions' at an increasing rate. You can't solve this by divide and conquer, nor will it do anything but increase if you keep going around a Jim Jeffries-style mental loop over and over again. You have to change something in this mix if you want to reduce this phenomenon - something has to give.

"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline Brooke

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Re: Something you won't find in your mainstream media
« Reply #77 on: June 08, 2022, 11:47:57 PM »
The Second Amendment is about a well regulated militia. Those are actually the first for words and the reasoning for the right to keep and bear arms.

Much argument could have been cleared up if the 2nd Amendment said something like this:
1.  "Since a well regulated Militia is necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms while serving in a Militia shall not be infringed."
or this:
2.  "A well regulated Militia is necessary to the security of a free State.  Regardless, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

The Supreme Court has taken (2) as being the meaning, not (1).

Not that the Supreme Court is always right in everyone's opinion, and many have argued that (1) is the correct meaning, but (2) how the law interprets it.

The founding fathers did think that militias were useful.  They also thought that armed citizens in general are a vital protection against government tyranny.

Here are some of their own words on that:

    “No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.” – Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

    “The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824

    “To disarm the people… the most effectual way to enslave them.” – George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

    “Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops.” – Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

 “To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.” – Richard Henry Lee, Federal Farmer No. 18, January 25, 1788

    “Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined…. The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun.” – Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778

    “This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty…. The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.” – St. George Tucker, Blackstone’s Commentaries on the Laws of England, 1803

    “The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” – Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

    “The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them.” – Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833

    “f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28, January 10, 1788

    “As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.” – Tench Coxe, Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789

Offline Brooke

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Re: Something you won't find in your mainstream media
« Reply #78 on: June 08, 2022, 11:51:16 PM »
Source?

https://everytownresearch.org/rankings/

"We compared gun policy across the country, scoring every state on the strength of its gun laws and comparing it with its rate of gun violence."

On gun-law strength, the rate California #1.

"1.    California, 8.5 gun deaths per 100,000 residents. California has all five foundational policies in place, and is the only state in the nation that requires all new handgun models have microstamping technology — which makes it easier to trace firearms used in crimes. California ranks 44th in gun death rate, according to the Giffords Law Center."

Offline Brooke

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Re: Something you won't find in your mainstream media
« Reply #79 on: June 08, 2022, 11:53:04 PM »
it might cause people to want to visit the wilderness in Ontario.

Too many mosquitoes.

Offline Brooke

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Re: Something you won't find in your mainstream media
« Reply #80 on: June 08, 2022, 11:56:13 PM »
1. Other nations have mental health issues without the frequency of mass shootings suffered in the U.S.

Out of Canada, US, and Europe (not including Africa, S. America, etc.), US is #11.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/mass-shootings-by-country

Average (Mean) Annual Death Rate per Million People from Mass Public Shootings (U.S., Canada, and Europe, 2009-2015):

    Norway — 1.888
    Serbia — 0.381
    France — 0.347
    Macedonia — 0.337
    Albania — 0.206
    Slovakia — 0.185
    Switzerland — 0.142
    Finland — 0.132
    Belgium — 0.128
    Czech Republic — 0.123
    United States — 0.089


Offline Brooke

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Re: Something you won't find in your mainstream media
« Reply #82 on: June 09, 2022, 12:10:02 AM »
If your gun is stolen and used in a crime, then you also need to be charged. I suggest 5 years, no parole.

Fortunately, that is against all sorts of precedent of law in the US and is highly unlikely.

It would then cause things like, if a thief steals you car, runs from police pursuit, loses control, and plows into a crowd of people, you -- the car owner and victim of theft -- would be criminally liable.

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Something you won't find in your mainstream media
« Reply #83 on: June 09, 2022, 12:15:14 AM »
Summary list of mass shootings with Wikipedia pages in the United States 2000–2020.

Year   Events   Dead
2021   10   63
2020   6   16
2019   18   110
2018   19   101
2017   22   162
2016   14   111
2015   12   89
2014   6   28
2013   7   40
2012   12   86
2011   6   38
2010   5   27
2009   7   59
2008   6   47
2007   5   60
2006   4   25
2005   3   18
2004   3   20
2003   3   9
2002   3   23
2001   2   5
2000   3   17

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Something you won't find in your mainstream media
« Reply #84 on: June 09, 2022, 12:19:05 AM »
Fortunately, that is against all sorts of precedent of law in the US and is highly unlikely.

It would then cause things like, if a thief steals you car, runs from police pursuit, loses control, and plows into a crowd of people, you -- the car owner and victim of theft -- would be criminally liable.
Would be interesting.

In some States if you are with someone who murders you also can be charged with murder.

Offline Brooke

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Re: Something you won't find in your mainstream media
« Reply #85 on: June 09, 2022, 12:26:44 AM »
All their motor vehicles must be covered in case of property loss and/or medical cost/loss of life.

Up to some amount, like $30k for people and $5k for property (taking CA as an example).

Quote
Granted, not if it is stolen.

Correct.

Quote
But what about responsible gun owners whose guns are not stolen?

Unlike with cars (which get into accidents commonly), I suspect it is way less uncommon for responsible gun owners to injure others or damage property.

Quote
Or does the Constitution say there's a free pass?  :old:

If a law was passed to require insurance on guns, it is highly likely that it would be fought on Constitution grounds as an infringement on the right to keep and bear arms.  Don't know if it would prevail or not.

Insurance wouldn't significantly change any dynamic, though.  There is no free pass, though, with or without insurance.  If it's criminal behavior, you can be prosecuted.  And you can always be sued in civil court.

Offline Brooke

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Re: Something you won't find in your mainstream media
« Reply #86 on: June 09, 2022, 12:29:01 AM »
Isn't the USofA considered a First World country? Acts more like one of those 's***hole' countries of Africa someone mentioned a couple or so years ago.

Depends on if you live in Chicago, LA, Detroit, etc. or not.

Offline Brooke

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Re: Something you won't find in your mainstream media
« Reply #87 on: June 09, 2022, 12:31:19 AM »
Summary list of mass shootings with Wikipedia pages in the United States 2000–2020.

Then you just need to look at that same list for various other countries and divide by population to get per capita.

Offline Brooke

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Re: Something you won't find in your mainstream media
« Reply #88 on: June 09, 2022, 12:41:18 AM »
In some States if you are with someone who murders you also can be charged with murder.

Only if you are an accomplice, which has various legal aspects that must be met along the lines of you being helpful or willing in some aspect of the process.

It doesn't apply if you are a hostage, or opposing what is going on.

It certainly doesn't apply if you aren't even there, such as if a criminal stole your stuff and misused it.

However, in the US you can be sued in civil court for anything.  A victim could sue you for improper storage of your firearm that made it easy for a thief to steal it.  You could be sued for damages and potentially lose depending on the details, skill of the lawyers involved, and luck of the draw on a jury.

Offline guncrasher

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Re: Something you won't find in your mainstream media
« Reply #89 on: June 09, 2022, 12:56:28 AM »
Out of Canada, US, and Europe (not including Africa, S. America, etc.), US is #11.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/mass-shootings-by-country

Average (Mean) Annual Death Rate per Million People from Mass Public Shootings (U.S., Canada, and Europe, 2009-2015):

    Norway — 1.888
    Serbia — 0.381
    France — 0.347
    Macedonia — 0.337
    Albania — 0.206
    Slovakia — 0.185
    Switzerland — 0.142
    Finland — 0.132
    Belgium — 0.128
    Czech Republic — 0.123
    United States — 0.089

this is the fact you didnt quote.


According to the fact-checkers' analysis, one of those inappropriate methods was the leaving out of the many European countries that had not experienced a single mass shooting between 2009-2015. This data would not have changed the position of the U.S. on the list, but its absence could lead a reader to believe—incorrectly—that the U.S. experienced fewer mass shooting fatalities per capita than all but a handful of countries in Europe.

A more important oversight was the report's use of average deaths per capita instead of a more stable metric. Because of the smaller populations of most European countries, individual events in those countries had statistically oversized influence and warped the results. For example, Norway’s world-leading annual rate was due to a single devastating 2011 event, in which far-right extremist Anders Behring Breivik gunned down 69 people at a summer camp on the island of Utøya. Norway had zero mass shootings in 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015.


semp

edit: it was on the same link you posted.

just to prove to you that your own links do not actually provide facts.


A possible better alternative to the CPRC mass shooter report

The fact-checking analysis goes on to suggest that instead of computing each country's average, or mean mass shooting deaths, a better method would be to compute the median, or typical, number of deaths. The median is considered by many statisticians to be better insulated against individual outlier events (such as the Norway massacre) that can skew results. This leads to a more accurate day-to-day impression and country-to-country comparison. Using the CPRC’s own data and more precise per-year population data from World Bank (the original study used only 2015 population data) to solve for the median, the more statistically sound analysis results in a notably different list:
Typical (Median) Annual Death Rate per Million People from Mass Public Shootings (U.S., Canada, and Europe, 2009-2015):

    United States — 0.058
    Albania — 0
    Austria — 0
    Belgium — 0
    Czech Republic — 0
    Finland — 0
    France — 0
    Germany — 0
    Italy — 0
    Macedonia — 0
    Netherlands — 0
    Norway — 0
    Russia — 0
    Serbia — 0
    Slovakia — 0
    Switzerland — 0
« Last Edit: June 09, 2022, 01:04:22 AM by guncrasher »
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.