Author Topic: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?  (Read 8860 times)

Offline mthrockmor

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Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2022, 09:06:55 AM »
It only takes 9 substations down to take down “the grid”

Can you go deeper into this statement? I'd like to share with those I work with. Thanks in advance!

Boo
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Offline icepac

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Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2022, 01:23:26 PM »
Wow, I didn't know that substations stored transformers.


Often, the shipping process is very intense and some will ship two at a time even though only one is being replaced.




So tell me icepac, since you seem to have the assumptions, can transformers in substations be repaired on site?   
 

Yes, to a certain extent.    The Metcalfe transformers only suffered damage to the cooling reservoirs and jackets.    If windings were damaged, it's doubtful they would be repaired on site. 

I seriously think the Metcalfe attack was purposely planned to NOT destroy the transformers but rather to "warn" of what could have happened.     Somebody was trying to make a statement.


How can a substation cause the national grid to crumble? Can power be diverted to other circuits that allow a substation to basically be skipped?  Do you have any direct knowledge of power company operations?

I can answer each of those questions from direct experience, not from a gullible or ignorant position. 
Metcalf was down for nearly a month even though the damage was only to the cooling systems on the transformers.

Nine carefully picked stations downed within minutes.     Certainly not "a substation"

No, I'm not going to name the critical stations.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 02:08:03 PM by icepac »

Offline SIM

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Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2022, 03:16:24 PM »
Quote
Often, the shipping process is very intense and some will ship two at a time even though only one is being replaced.


Ok, in some instances  your statement is correct. In most others it is ambiguous at best.
 I'm going to stop with that one there and ask exactly how you know this information? Is it thru work experience or that you've talked to a supposed authority/read someones article?

9 carefully selected substations taking down the national grid is silly for a number of reasons. Care to show your conviction and tell me how I am making an incorrect statement? Please don't tell me it is because some government agency says so...

So with a couple of thousand electric utilities in this nation, exactly how many times will that number 9 be multiplied in order to cause a national grid outage? If you really believe that 9 will do it, please explain how...........


« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 05:17:07 PM by SIM »

Offline icepac

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Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2022, 06:22:07 PM »


Ok, in some instances  your statement is correct. In most others it is ambiguous at best.
 I'm going to stop with that one there and ask exactly how you know this information? Is it thru work experience or that you've talked to a supposed authority/read someones article?

The driver of this plane pictured told me.    His last reserve gig had him inspecting critical power stations to rate vulnerability.    It was "continuation of goverment" duties.

Name's on the plane.




Offline SIM

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Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2022, 06:51:13 PM »
Quote
The driver of this plane pictured told me.    His last reserve gig had him inspecting critical power stations to rate vulnerability.    It was "continuation of goverment" duties.

That picture says a lot! Thanks for his service to this nation!

But by posting that picture, and your comment, you've essentially shown that you have no direct knowledge of the subject matter we have been discussing.

 I am no expert whatsoever, but I have spent most of my adult life working for an electric utility and I take as much pride in that fact as you appear to do about that pilot.
 I am very familiar with some of the myths that are out there about the "national grid". I also know that every power company in this nation has concerns over security issues. I am bombarded by those concerns on a daily basis, and so are others that frequent this forum. I have spent time working the type of outages you fear. I've been there, done that, more times than most people would understand.
 What I refuse to "let go", is the absolute idiocy of assumption regarding electrical power utilities. I spend every single day working to provide power to citizens in my area. I work with people that are just as amazing as that pilot. Their dedication to duty, their work ethic, and their attention to detail is oft-times unbelievable. Their commitment to safety for themselves and others is inspiring at the least and damn near god-like at its best. They care, each and every damn one of them try to make things better. Believe it or not, it's not always about the money....
 So, when anyone decides that making assumptions about my profession is the only way to come to some sort of conclusion, you are damn right I will speak up and question their comments.
 

 If it were not for linemen, this conversation would not be possible.


Offline icepac

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Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2022, 08:24:30 PM »
 In the event that a vital power transmission substation goes off line unexpectedly, The nature of the grid allows for “lateral support” by one or more functioning nodes.     
All goes well assuming the functioning nodes have enough reserve capacity.   
If not, the supporting nodes could trip and possibly cascade into more nodes going offline.

Is it safe to assume that some regional grids operate near 100% capacity?

How would they carry the extra loading?

My comments in this thread assume a good amount of damage being caused in the attempt to start a cascade of failures.     

Had the clowns who took down metcalfe substation had used something stronger than 7.62X39,    The incident would have had a much longer lasting effect.

I’m perfectly capable of discussing the dynamic nature of fly back voltage and hole charges on large scale transmission if you want to get that deep.   
My experience engineering automotive control unit test equipment every time a new family of control units should be enough but I can add my time prototyping power supplies at orbcomm (orbital sciences).     

I don’t have to have lineman experience to understand distributed loads and I’m not detailing which stations and ordering of attacks to induce a major catastrophic event.


Offline guncrasher

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Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2022, 08:57:07 PM »
for what I read the 196 something black out happened because off the failure of a single relay.

times have changed but I do believe it's possible to take down the grid. is it likely probably not but the chances are never zero.

will we go back to the planet of the apes. no. or at least I hope not.


semp


semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline Shuffler

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Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #52 on: July 23, 2022, 04:17:15 AM »
Linemen, the original storm troopers.
80th FS "Headhunters"

S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning In A Bottle)

Offline Eagler

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Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #53 on: July 23, 2022, 06:26:04 AM »
Linemen, the original storm troopers.

It doesn't have to be nation wide just your neighborhood for things to get interesting

Eagler
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Offline Dichotomy

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Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #54 on: July 23, 2022, 07:27:45 AM »
On this subject has anyone looked into solar powered generator as a viable backup?

I can't see gas generators lasting more than a week before a nice group of armed thugs takes it from you as they make way too much noise to hide

Eagler

Generac recently rolled out a Hybrid system.  Solar and LNG.  Not sure if it goes propane and / or diesel and haven't looked too deeply into it. 
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Offline Arlo

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Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2022, 02:45:35 PM »
Linemen, the original storm troopers.

Bad shots?

Offline guncrasher

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Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #56 on: July 23, 2022, 03:01:33 PM »
It doesn't have to be nation wide just your neighborhood for things to get interesting

Eagler



the northern part of the city gets electricity shut off when the Santana winds come down.  I hear on the local Facebook group. nice homes but not worth 700k. no power for days at a time. too cheap to spend on a house generator.  oh well.  no riots at least.


semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline icepac

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Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2022, 03:19:27 PM »
If you’re going to generate, look for about 10kv or more.    1800rpm diesel generators are less thirsty and a bit more quiet.

Offline Shuffler

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Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2022, 11:00:29 PM »
I ordered my 24kw Generac 2 months after the February freeze last year. It finally came in and was installed in March this year.
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Offline -gg-

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Re: National power grid down one month......Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2022, 11:29:03 PM »
I ordered my 24kw Generac 2 months after the February freeze last year. It finally came in and was installed in March this year.

That's nice. I wouldn't mind having one and a big giant propane tank.

I live in a very mild climate but I've been looking at property in Michigan.
Icecreamonmars.com. ICOM for short.