Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?

[CptTrips]

An interesting view.

Surprisingly AH actually gets a brief mention, but I think he thinks it has already closed down. 

[oboe]

Thanks for this post.   I was all ready to disagree with the guy based on all the new content Great Battles and DCS have been releasing, Flight Simulator storming back, and the number of players populating War Thunder's servers - but after watching I think he may be correct.   I dabbled in BMS before discovering DCS; maybe when VR capability is added I should give it a look again.

I agree with the notion of being too dependent on Eastern European programming talent, and that War Thunder seems to have its own gravity, keeping players trapped.    I was surprised and pleased to see him acknowledge Aces High as one of the early sims from the Golden Age - without a mention for Warbirds or Air Warrior.

Can you imagine Aces High with a dynamic campaign with integrated ground and air AI units in all of the countries?   While new aircraft may no longer be in reach for Aces High, I think Hitech could still be capable of creating 3-sided AI-augmented dynamic campaigns within the MA, and a change like this might solve both the player-caused side imbalances and the stagnation or map rolling that so many players are tired of.   

Who knows, a change like this might also get AH noticed again in the wider flight sim community.

Tahnks again for posting - hope to see some more discussion here...

[Nefarious]

this was an interesting video indeed.

Here's my comment:

41 going on 42 - and I fly 4 flight sim games - Still lying Aces High near weekly since 2000 in Friday Squad Ops, next up it's IL2 BOX, whether Combat Box, FlugPark, Finnish Virtual... then it's Strike Fighters 2 - followed by DCS single player. I don't fly DCS online, only offline kind of like MSFS2000. I agree with your points in this video - I have never flown War Thunder, but I have been seeing lots of videos and shorts and it's honestly quite tempting.

IL2 is frustrating because of the settings in Multiplayer Servers. I can deal with no icons, but it would be helpful to have some Friendly Killshooter. The offline campaign and scripted campaigns are ok, but have their flaws. DCS is the SIM-SIM that you learn and study and reminds of the old MSFS where you learn and fly. Strike Fighters offers all the aircraft I like and I can be fighting in less than 2 minutes with hordes of MiGs and all modded out offers some OK graphics - like Falcon 4.0. Wish it Thirdwire would patch it up for VR and online play.

Great video and offers a reasonable explanation of todays sim market.

[CptTrips]

[perdue3]

this was an interesting video indeed.

Here's my comment:

I basically only fly Flugpark these days just because TAW is shut down. Wings of Liberty was good for a time.

[nrshida]

Very good points I think. Wonder if we will have a renaissance? I had high hopes for IL2-1946 with all of the post-war what-ifs but I never could install it.

[AKIron]

BMS has done a lot to keep a 25 year old sim alive but the terrain made from repetitive tiles has long been too hard for me to ignore. Kills the immersion.

[DmonSlyr]

I thought his best point was about developers not being able to enhance games or add structure fast enough before the player base gets tired of it. It does all depend on the "bones" of the game. Halo Infinite has been a good example of that with their problems. I was a bit disappointed he did not talk about Aces High more though. Personally, I don't think that guy spent much time or any in Aces High to really understand it. He talked about BMS, DCS, Il2 and WT but not AH... Even though AH provides many of the things he said most other games did not. AH has FSO, Combat Challenge, Scenarios, King of the Hill, and other events and literally no one ever mentions this or talks about it. It saddens me really. A hidden gem. These battles are freaking intense! Hardly any real comments never discuss the wonders of these events. Not only that but the MA is a full time war game on an open map where just about anything goes. He mentioned that about BMS, which was Co-op basically, but not about AH which is all online and takes a lot of skill and practice to learn SA and all of the planes.

The things about Flight Simulators is that they take time and patience to learn. It's all about how much you want to learn and how quickly you want to learn it. I am going through this with DCS. Its very dynamic to me and I am taking my time to practice and learn the game. With AH, I wanted to learn Air combat more than anything 17 years ago, so I did everything I could do be the best and it still took me 2 years to be sorta good...I played it Intensely because air combat was the coolest thing to me. I still play it because of the challenge and warlike style of the game. The MA was so much harder than the H2H. I thought H2H was so great for this game to feed young players. I may have never been around if not for being able to play H2H for free with other players to gain quick air combat experience. I wasn't even close ready for the MA. Many "gamers", especially young gamers want quick action. Flight simulators do not provide quick action really... War Thunder did that with the CoD model and it worked of course. Now it sucks in players who are young and really aren't in the phase of "learning air combat". It's also "free" for them to play that way. Most gamers however want to play what all of their friends are playing so they can sit around the table and talk about it and play together. Flight Sims to me have always been a "loner" type gameplay. Ie, my friends never got into it and thought it was boring to watch me play having to fly 5 minutes to a field first. I had one friend play for a bit back in 2015 when H2H was free and even he wasn't passionate about it. Thing is, the subscription model also prevents young players from playing longer. They might want to try the game again a few months later after they downloaded it but find out they have to pay $15 for one month just to see the MA and there is no where else to go to fight people and learn the game with others in a quick way. There are a LOT of games out there you can buy an entire game for $15. So it just seems like it's sorta expensive if you have no clue what the heck is going on. I'd still love to see a commercial again on TV.

Flight simmers are very special people. There just aren't that many of us out there and now there are many games competing for those players. Hell there is a shortage of pilots in the real world. I know of only one person in my whole highschool who became a pilot. Sims normally takes an older crowd because they have the time and patience to learn a more intricate skill of "sorta closely like the real thing" which is always harder than hopping into already moving planes and instantly trying to shoot down other online players. Young players just dont have the patience, don't have the money, or aren't interested in flying to begin with. That leaves a small market with a lot of competition out there.

[-gg-]

For me, online games have to be multiplayer - and not just 10 players or so. I think AH has a great balance between a good flight model and graphics/realism.  Sure, the graphics could be better but for me graphics are not the main attraction to most games. What attracts me is the people and the interaction.

DCS, for me, would be very boring. I don't have an interest in having to learn every switch and lever in a plane and then just basically fly around sight seeing. I think the graphics are fantastic. The SIM is probably very accurate and realistic. It just doesn't interest me.

My favorite thing to do in AH is just fighting other planes and dogfighting. I really enjoy the WWI arena when I pop in there.

[Nefarious]

I basically only fly Flugpark these days just because TAW is shut down. Wings of Liberty was good for a time.

Yes, WOL was good when it had numbers.

One FSO frame has anywhere from 20 to 40 more pilots than the most populated servers in IL2BOX.

I think it offers the best Air Combat outside of AH.

[perdue3]

Yes, WOL was good when it had numbers.

One FSO frame has anywhere from 20 to 40 more pilots than the most populated servers in IL2BOX.

I think it offers the best Air Combat outside of AH.

It certainly does. My issue is the amount of time you really need to dedicate to it to be competitive, not flying, but spotting and tracking. Because I've not dedicated copious amounts of time, I am simply average if not below on the WWII side. The WWI side, I am very confident.

[AKIron]

Many kids who grew up during or relatively soon after WWII had a natural interest in that war. Later generations naturally less so. Technology advanced and so did the interest in "modern" jets. That interest has faded. Not for some but among large numbers. The amount of interest and people willing to pay to satisfy it of course drives the market.

[CptTrips]

Many kids who grew up during or relatively soon after WWII had a natural interest in that war. Later generations naturally less so.

Maybe.  I understand the reasoning.  That argument get trotted out around here a lot to excuse AH's the lack of appeal to the current market.  Frankly though, it strikes me as a weak argument.

IL2 franchise has sold something like 10 million copies.  They still sell millions every iteration. 

War Thunder has a large percentage of WWII aircraft and is quite successful.

In non-flight genre you have popular games like WWII based Post Scriptum, Call of Duty: WWII, Hell Let Loose, etc.  BF5 was one of the most anticipated releases in years despite being WWII.  (Yeah,EA flubbed it, but that wasn’t because of lack of interest in the WWII subject matter.)  Not flight sims, but indication that merely a WWII subject matter is not a deal breaker for the current market.

 
If WWII based IL2 Great Battles release can still sell 3 million units, then obviously the WWII subject matter is probably not the obstacle that many like to think it is.  If AH could convert 1/1000th as many, it’s troubles would be over and it would have a new lease on life. Whatever the core fundamental problem is (we all have our opinions) it seems unlikely that the WWII subject matter is the main friction point.

I still suspect a WWII flight sim with the proper graphics, physics and damage modeling, user UI experience, play style and balance, activity cadence, and monetization model, could find buyers. 

Sure, that is plenty to have to over come (probably too much at this point).  I understand the emotional comfort of being able to say, “it’s not the games fault.  It’s just that no one is interested in WWII anymore.”  If trying to fix the real problems is no longer feasible, I supposed that balm has a certain palliative value.

BTW, good to see you still kicking around and popping your head up.  About a million years ago, in a different reincarnation, I flew as AKWabbit.

 

[CptTrips]

BTW, these guys are at least still trying. 




Maybe that's how bases in AH should have to be captured. 

I like the concept of WWIIOL but have never been impressed with their execution.  But they haven't given up.

I would have loved to have seen Cornered Rats and HTC merge in the early days and have produced WWIIOL model with HTC quality.

Tour of Duty looked promising, but alas....

[DmonSlyr]

Maybe.  I understand the reasoning.  That argument get trotted out around here a lot to excuse AH's the lack of appeal to the current market.  Frankly though, it strikes me as a weak argument.

IL2 franchise has sold something like 10 million copies.  They still sell millions every iteration. 

War Thunder has a large percentage of WWII aircraft and is quite successful.

In non-flight genre you have popular games like WWII based Post Scriptum, Call of Duty: WWII, Hell Let Loose, etc.  BF5 was one of the most anticipated releases in years despite being WWII.  (Yeah,EA flubbed it, but that wasn’t because of lack of interest in the WWII subject matter.)  Not flight sims, but indication that merely a WWII subject matter is not a deal breaker for the current market.

 
If WWII based IL2 Great Battles release can still sell 3 million units, then obviously the WWII subject matter is probably not the obstacle that many like to think it is.  If AH could convert 1/1000th as many, it’s troubles would be over and it would have a new lease on life. Whatever the core fundamental problem is (we all have our opinions) it seems unlikely that the WWII subject matter is the main friction point.

I still suspect a WWII flight sim with the proper graphics, physics and damage modeling, user UI experience, play style and balance, activity cadence, and monetization model, could find buyers. 

Sure, that is plenty to have to over come (probably too much at this point).  I understand the emotional comfort of being able to say, “it’s not the games fault.  It’s just that no one is interested in WWII anymore.”  If trying to fix the real problems is no longer feasible, I supposed that balm has a certain palliative value.

BTW, good to see you still kicking around and popping your head up.  About a million years ago, in a different reincarnation, I flew as AKWabbit.

 

How many do you think they would sell if it was subscription based like AH?