Simulated Aerial Combat Roundtable

[hazmatt]

Oh boy! I just saw some dramma on the IL2 message boards! It was about using paragraphs! Gasp!

[LCADolby]

Oh boy! I just saw some dramma on the IL2 message boards! It was about using paragraphs! Gasp!

[hazmatt]

Dang DLCs are getting expensive!

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/88028-can-someone-lend-me-26500/

[AKIron]

Big drama between ED and RAZBAM underway. Losers will be the users of course.

[edge12674]

Big drama between ED and RAZBAM underway. Losers will be the users of course.

It is easy to forget that our entertainment is a business just like any other.  I remember when Wild Bill took over Warbirds.  Really sucked, luckily nature abhors a vacuum and other options appeared.

[CptTrips]

The downside of the 3rd party vendor system.  More CEO ego's to juggle.

ED better be completely in the wrong here or I'd have to think airing contractual beefs would be a professional suicide.

Lol.  As long as I still get my Kiowa.

[AKIron]

I like RAZBAM. Their modules are comparable to EDs. Heatblur is a step ahead.

[RichardDarkwood]

It is really hard to top this action.


https://youtu.be/UBh7uGbA9bI?si=23G9U_mWuszeISiR

[Tumor]

The downside of the 3rd party vendor system.  More CEO ego's to juggle.

ED better be completely in the wrong here or I'd have to think airing contractual beefs would be a professional suicide.

Lol.  As long as I still get my Kiowa.

Just spitballing here... but, I kinda doubt this will end well. 

Do you remember the HAWK debacle?

[CptTrips]

Just spitballing here... but, I kinda doubt this will end well. 

Do you remember the HAWK debacle?

Oh the drama.  An outsider would think the flightsim would was populated mainly by teenage girls.

Hawk was before my time.  I am waiting for more info before taking sides.

However, that said, regardless of the real issue, it seems to me the the Razbam dev is acting very unprofessionally.  Even if completely in the right (which I am increasingly doubtful of).

The beginning of the story is slowly appearing to clarify.  It looks like maybe Razbam had broken some IP conditions of it's contract with ED and maybe ED has an enforcement clause and is withholding payments to the vendor until they get back in compliance or in some other way correct the situation.

Ed only makes part of it's money off the consumer product.  A big chuck comes from their work with various militaries providing trainers, so anyone jacking with that, I can understand them not having a sense of humor about.  There are always things you can fault ED about, but in this situation, IMHO, ED has been acting restrained and professional.

That isn't to say they are not playing hardball, but you have a fiduciary duty to your stockholders to protect your IP and markets, and if you have to strap on you 6-shooters to protect those, you do what you gotta do.

But it is still too early to grasp the whole story and I'm not going to form a hard opinion until more comes out.  However, Razbam better be 100% in the right here and ED 100% in the wrong, because anything less I'd have to assume at least this devs career is over, and maybe Razbam is toast.  This is what lawyers are for and running to an internet forum to pull your pants down and show your bum is not how professionals handle contract disputes.  If I were MSFS or X-plane, I'd be very hesitant to work with Razbam at this point.  Even if they are 100% in the right, this behavior is unprofessional AF, but good entertainment.

Red meat for the Floggit crowd.


So yeah, the Hawk, this and Oleg's Normandy thing are examples of the downside of the 3rd party developer model.  There are never perfect solutions in life, only trade-offs.

I don't care too much because jets are for gurls.

I think this will pretty get you up to date on the latest of what we know:

[RichardDarkwood]

When you don't get paid for work performed

How long are you gonna go without saying something?

I have heard that ED owes razbam over $350,000

[CptTrips]

When you don't get paid for work performed

How long are you gonna go without saying something?

I have heard that ED owes razbam over $350,000

If I hire a contractor to do work on my house and they are not doing the work as specified in the contract, and I have an enforcement clause, if I can't get immediate compliance I will exercise that clause and withhold payment.  That's the step I take short of suing them.  It's the leverage the payor has.

Especially if the contract breach is the contractor violating my IP rights which would be like stealing from me while on the job site.

I don't know if this is the case, but it is sorta coming out like this slowly.

If ED just on a lark, out of the blue, for no reason just decided to stop paying, that would be a different story, but running on to the internet to pull your pants down and show your bum is still not the professional way to handle things.  That what contracts and lawyers are for. 

The CEO Razbam seems to be backing down now releasing a statement that looks more like a professional hashing out a contractual dispute. 

I suspect the rogue dev is gone.  Probably needs to find a new industry now.

The whole thing smells.  At first the dev was trying to make it sound like ED was not paying for no reason at all.  Bringing up all kinds of smear about the ED CEO buying fancy airplanes and stuff that has nothing to do with the issue.  I think if Razbam wasn't getting paid for 8 months and was totally in the right, they would have just files suit by now.  Sounds like they weren't getting paid for a reason and didn't have a leg to stand on in court and couldn't sue.

It made no sense ED would jsut stop payment for no reason, just randomly stop paying because they are evil and thought they could getaway with that without getting sued.

Slowly it has been coming out that, ohhhhh, there was a reason.  Maybe Razbam was in breach of contract and maybe violated ED's IP.  That starts to make much more sense.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/1by27e7/razbam_update_a_positive_note/

Still the whole issue isn't completely clear so we need more of the facts.  If the dev that started this wanted to be taken seriously, he should have poured out the entire fact pattern in all the details to show they were in the right.  Not a bunch of vague insinuation and 99%'er whining about rich CEO oppressing the down-trodden Proletariat.     Because if it starts to come out later that oh, you were violating their IP?  That's why payment was being withheld?  Oh, now the dev has lost all credibility and sympathy.

[AKIron]

Did someone mention 3rd party developers?

https://youtu.be/s2YY2gQ76cw?si=xgSjKLlXt_8mKu-0

[RichardDarkwood]

If I hire a contractor to do work on my house and they are not doing the work as specified in the contract, and I have an enforcement clause, if I can't get immediate compliance I will exercise that clause and withhold payment.  That's the step I take short of suing them.  It's the leverage the payor has.

Especially if the contract breach is the contractor violating my IP rights which would be like stealing from me while on the job site.

I don't know if this is the case, but it is sorta coming out like this slowly.

If ED just on a lark, out of the blue, for no reason just decided to stop paying, that would be a different story, but running on to the internet to pull your pants down and show your bum is still not the professional way to handle things.  That what contracts and lawyers are for. 

The CEO Razbam seems to be backing down now releasing a statement that looks more like a professional hashing out a contractual dispute. 

I suspect the rogue dev is gone.  Probably needs to find a new industry now.

The whole thing smells.  At first the dev was trying to make it sound like ED was not paying for no reason at all.  Bringing up all kinds of smear about the ED CEO buying fancy airplanes and stuff that has nothing to do with the issue.  I think if Razbam wasn't getting paid for 8 months and was totally in the right, they would have just files suit by now.  Sounds like they weren't getting paid for a reason and didn't have a leg to stand on in court and couldn't sue.

It made no sense ED would jsut stop payment for no reason, just randomly stop paying because they are evil and thought they could getaway with that without getting sued.

Slowly it has been coming out that, ohhhhh, there was a reason.  Maybe Razbam was in breach of contract and maybe violated ED's IP.  That starts to make much more sense.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/1by27e7/razbam_update_a_positive_note/

Still the whole issue isn't completely clear so we need more of the facts.  If the dev that started this wanted to be taken seriously, he should have poured out the entire fact pattern in all the details to show they were in the right.  Not a bunch of vague insinuation and 99%'er whining about rich CEO oppressing the down-trodden Proletariat.     Because if it starts to come out later that oh, you were violating their IP?  That's why payment was being withheld?  Oh, now the dev has lost all credibility and sympathy.

Stop looking in the wrong direction.


They called out Eagle Dynamics as a last ditch effort.

Kind of like being in a middle school cut-down fight....if you don't have anything left to say theres always your mom to talk about.

Razbam has hit the end of the road and talked about eagle dynamics mom.


You may say its childish...but its all they had left, other than waiting outside the school for eagle dynamics to come outside.

[RichardDarkwood]

The last couple weeks I dove into the Warbirds of DCS. When I found aces high back in 2000 and played it until 2011 I thought it was the most badass WW2 flight sim ever. I have turned blue in the face promoting Aces High to friends and other gamers for years.


Having typed all that I feel foolish to have ever thought that. Aces High is just another game. It is totally easy mode in comparison. All these statements about the AH flight model are laughable to me after fully going down the DCS Warbird rabbit hole. I have to re-learn every aircrafts limitations all while managing to maintain normal flight without seizing the engine up. In the past I have saw aircraft in Aces High do things that are not possible in real life giving me a Arma/GTA V vibe.

Then I see all these arguments on this BB about " I'll out fly you and everybody else"
In Aces High those people are the Sh*t, but in other games where the modeling is a close to real as you can get those same people would not be the Sh*t. Which is why a lot of them will never play those other games.

Now this has nothing to do with my abilities as a cartoon pilot at all. This is an observation from someone who started in DCS in Helicopters and has now went back to Warbirds.


A week ago in the popular Wolfpack server I was spectating a fight between a 109 and a spit. The 109 for the spit into a situation which caused the spits engine to seize up and allowing the 109 to shoot down the spitfire.

The whole look of DCS warbirds is 150 times better. Going in for a bomb run in a P-51 and the bombs didn't drop because you didn't have the right switch selected is just crazy.


All these threads about not being able to find a good fight
or the HOARDERS keep rolling the other two countries
or Two countries would be so much better


Guess what. In the DCS warbirds server there is

two countries
no base HOARDERS
and plenty of fights.


The only problem is having a good enough machine to play
And actually learning to fly an aircraft.


I am just loving the DCS Warbirds