Talibans in Cuba, Euro pressure...

[babek-]

OK - Pol-Pot is surely not a result of israeli terrorism.

But people like the lybian president Ghaddafi or the oraqui president Hussein are direct results of the israeli policy.

Without Israel these men couldnt rose to the positions they have today.

Also BinLaden was a product of Israel. You are right that he started his open fight against the USA because of US-presence in Saudi-Arabia. But why are there US-soldiers? Because of the Kuwait-War. And why the Kuwait war?
Because the israeli product Hussein invaded it.

The true masters of terrorism are the actual rulers of Israel.
As long as they are not stopped we have to pay the price because the mad-driven arabs spread out to make their actions in the name of their desperation.

[babek-]

@ Dowding
Croatia had and has the right to be an independent country.

They are friends of Germany and I fully supported the decision of  chancellor Kohl, who stepped forward and helped them to regain their independance.

[Udie at Work]

Originally posted by babek-
OK - Pol-Pot is surely not a result of israeli terrorism.

But people like the lybian president Ghaddafi or the oraqui president Hussein are direct results of the israeli policy.

Without Israel these men couldnt rose to the positions they have today.

Also BinLaden was a product of Israel. You are right that he started his open fight against the USA because of US-presence in Saudi-Arabia. But why are there US-soldiers? Because of the Kuwait-War. And why the Kuwait war?
Because the israeli product Hussein invaded it.

The true masters of terrorism are the actual rulers of Israel.
As long as they are not stopped we have to pay the price because the mad-driven arabs spread out to make their actions in the name of their desperation.

 Please enlighten us to the step by step proccess that Isreal used to bring Sadam to power?  I'v read some strange stuff on this board but your's is the strangest in a while.  Quadafi? Sadam? Osama?  because of Isreal?  Jees I guess we should have let Hitler finish the job huh?

2 questions...

1.  What countries did Sharon and Arafat grow up in?

2.  Does Isreal have a right to exist?

[Fatty]

Oh man Babek.  We newfoundlanders are supposed to be the simplistic dolts next to the deep reasoning of the more educated Europeans.

So, just so I have it straight, any acts committed against anyone by a person that dislikes Israel are the fault of Israel?

[GRUNHERZ]

Dowding you are full of toejam, Slovenia was the first one to claim its independance. So stuff it you bastard, I dont know what what you have against Croatia.

[babek-]

Ok - I write it slowly, so you can follow it easier

After the 2nd WW great parts of the land of the palestines was taken away and given to a new state called Israel.
No one asked the people who lived there - there was no election - only the decision of some powerful foreign nations who behave like colonial powers.

This construction of this foreign state had catastrophical results for the arab nations there. Since then they tried to fight against the - what they call - invaders.
Their whole inner politic was dominated by this topic. Huge amounts of money were wasted in weapons, wars were fought and the hate grew by every year. Complete generations grew up with this and their hate was fueled by the aggressive and brutal politic of Israel.

Also the arabs saw that the USA always supported Israel and that this great nation was always ignoring the terroristic actions of the Israelis.

The alliance with the most arab states with the cold-war-enemy of the USA, the USSR, heated the whole situation up.

And this was the best ground for radical leaders to grow up.

Political radicals like Mr. Gaddafi, Mr. Assad or Mr. Hussein.

Does anyone really think that such radical leaders could raise under normal circumstances?

Sure - there were also great leaders like the egyptian Sadat or the israeli Rabin - but finally these men were killed by fanatics.

So the monsters - the Gaddafis, Husseins, Assads and Sharons could rose to power and continue their mad game of killing each other.

But the reason of all this developments lies alone in one fact:

Its because after WW2 some non-arab-nations decided like colonial powers of the 19th century to build a state called Israel.

By doing so they doomed generations of people living in this region.


I would not go so far to say that the state Israel has to be eliminated. But its also my opinion that the Palestines have the right to live in their own palestinian country.

Today we see how the armed hordes Sharon systematicly destroy the infrastructure of a future independant palestine state: Airports, Ports, Police departments, Radio and TV-Stations, police vehicles, helicopters and so on.
All these things were built with the help of the European Community.

Its time that someone stop this madness and help to install this independant palestine state.

After this the chances to integrate the state Israel with the neighboring nations would be much better. And with a chance for a better future the radical fanatics loose their support and maybe then the Sadats and Rabins could take their chance and overthrow the Husseins and Sharons.

[Fatty]

Okay, so you are saying anything anyone who dislikes Israel does is the fault of Israel.  Just wanted to make sure I understood that right.

[babek-]

No - I say that these radical arab leaders are logical products which grew in the atmosphere surrounding the birth and the following politic of Israel.

Like that radical monster called Hitler was a logical consequence of the Treaty of Versailles.

Thats the thing which disturbs me so much.

We could kill today 1000 terrorists - but when we dont find fair solutions for the problems which produce these terrorists day by day - we have to face the next terrorist-hordes tomorrow.

Its a shame that in the palestine/israeli region only radical fanatics rule instead of intelligent and moderate politicians.

[midnight Target]

We could kill today 1000 terrorists - but when we dont find fair solutions for the problems which produce these terrorists day by day - we have to face the next terrorist-hordes tomorrow.

Trouble is "fair" to whom? Some of these radical groups have demands that are not only unfair they are idiotic. Thats why they are not in the mainstream. duh!

Israel ain't perfect. But it is hard to be altruistic when all of your neighbors want you gone. When steps are taken to work for peace, the terrorists take steps to nullify it. (SADAT!)

Point is....we are treating the detainees just fine.

[Fatty]

Hitler and Versailles is not relevant to the conclusion you are drawing.  It might be for the direct conflict between PLO and Israel, but not for that entire section of the world.

A more parallel theory would be to somehow try to associate central american conflicts in the early 20th century to the Treaty of Versailles.

[Toad]

babek-: Its because after WW2 some non-arab-nations decided like colonial powers of the 19th century to build a state called Israel.

Those rat-bast*rd colonial powers were collectively called the UN.

Here's a list of how they voted:

Adopted at the 128th plenary meeting:

In favour: 33

Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Byelorussian S.S.R., Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxemburg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, Ukrainian S.S.R., Union of South Africa, U.S.A., U.S.S.R., Uruguay, Venezuela.

Against: 13

Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.

Abstained: 10

Argentina, Chile, China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, United Kingdom, Yugoslavia.

 United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181


...and now, a show of hands on three questions please:

1. Since the UN mandated an Independent Jewish State in 1947 (Israel), should UN members abide by this decision? (Yes or No)


2. Israel has fought a few wars to survive as an Independent Jewish State:  
 
1948 War of Independence

1956 Sinai Campaign

1967 Six-Day War

1973 Yom Kippur War

1982 Operation Peace for Galilee.

Either covertly or overtly the US and/or its populace have supported Israel with money and arms to help them win these wars of National Survival.

Would Israel exist today if the US and/or its populace had NOT helped Israel with money and arms?

3. Should the US be continually excoriated for helping Israel survive?


I don't agree with all the things Israel has done or is doing by a long shot. However, they do have a history of having to struggle mightily just to be allowed to exist.

[babek-]

Look - I try to tell you my feelings about this topic from another point of view:

Many germans of my generation asked their parents/grandparents why they had ignored the terrorism of the Nazis from 33 to 45.

Many got the answer that they simply havent seen any terrorism and that they were shocked when the truth was revealed after the war.


Today - even with the pro-israeli press in the western countries - we have no problems to get the true informations how the actual israeli government commits terroristic crimes.

And again many people - and this time not only the germans - are ignoring these terrorism for the same reasons like 33/45.
Its not opportune to critizise Israel today.
But why ????

If we continue to ignore these crimes its my opinion that we became like the german generation of WW2 who had the same argumentation.

But I will never forgive or ignore terrorism - I hate terrorism in a general way - and its absolutely not important for me if its arab, israeli, irish, afghan or what else terrorism.
I hate it to see all these victims - the people who died during the WTC-attack, the catholic school-children terrorized in North Ireland, the dead israelis because the next suicide-arab had arrived and the dead arab children shot down by israeli troops and so on.
I just hate the stupid argumentation of their leaders, who mostly are fanatics and fuel the hate every day.

And I have to face the fact that many work is done to bomb terrorist down but no one really search for the reasons to stop the production of the next terrorists.

In contrary - the example Israel shows that terroristic-acts are ignored, because they are done by an ally.

Thats the point which I cant accept.

[babek-]

Originally posted by Toad


Those rat-bast*rd colonial powers were collectively called the UN.

Here's a list of how they voted:

Adopted at the 128th plenary meeting:

In favour: 33
Against: 13
Abstained: 10

 

Great argumentation.

56 nations after the 2ndWW make a "democratic" vote to decide if the land of one single nation should be taken away and givento someone else.

There are much more than only 56 nations on earth - even after WW2.

The whole UN was dominated by a few powers after WW2 who used it as a moralic argumentation.

But nevertheless this was like the lineal-drawings of the northern africa borders of some colonial powers.

[GRUNHERZ]

Yea babek, but if Germany hadnt tried to wipe the Jews out in WW2 there would have been no world sympathy for a Zionist Jewish homeland. The only reason this happend legaly like it did was because of Hitlers little thing about Jews.


Now the only reason Palestenians are homeless is their stupidity. If they had one Gandhi or MLK it would have been a done deal by now and the Jews would be bending over to kiss Arafats ass. The problem with the Palestenians is that they are violent in response to Israel's violence.  And I will say this and its a fact the Jews started the mid-east terrorism in the 1930s when they terrorized the British and the Arabs in saeres of attacks and bombings.  If the Palestenians just tried the non violent confrontation practiced by Gandhi and MLK, they would have as state.

The Israeli Jews are pretty nasty and enjoy killing but even they would have to stop killing masses of unarmed people doing nin violent resistance. Then they would get tired of it and give a state.


But! Nobody forget what happend in 1947/1948 not all of Palestine was given to the Jews, the arabs decided invade the Jewish areas. Yes I know the Jews attacked and massacerd unarmed arabs.


But its onlt the arbs fault. They have a legitimate cause on their side but they decide to be violent against a superior military force. Thats why they are where they are now!

[Udie]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
But! Nobody forget what happend in 1947/1948 not all of Palestine was given to the Jews, the arabs decided invade the Jewish areas. .

 

 I hardly ever see this mentioned.  Why aren't they pissed at Egypt or Jordan?