Talibans in Cuba, Euro pressure...

[Tumor]

Originally posted by Peer
The orange jumpsuits are not the bad thing. Hell - when US tourist visit Germany they wear clothes which are much more worse than these suits

No - if the picture shown and the reports in TV are true, we have to face inhuman treatment of prisoners by the USA.

You dont have to beat someone to torture him. You can break him much more effectively with other methods - like the one shown in the picture.

These men, kneeling there, could not see, could not hear and could not speak. They are completely isolated.

After some few days even the mentally strongest of them will break.

The same method is used in countries like Turkey with the Kurd-prisoners or in China.

When these countries do such things especially the US-human-right-organisations cry out in rage and call this barbarism.

And I agree with them.

  Good grief peer.  Know what your talking about before you make assumptions.  The CRIMINALS (not soldiers) in that picture were inprocessing the holding area.  It is standard procedure to isolate prisoner's in such a way before they are moved to permanent holding facilities.  They are "treated" this way because they are dangerous and have proven (at the cost real lives) that given any opportunity whatsoever they will organize and riot.

  Put yourself on the other side for a moment.  Lets say you get to guard 5 prisoners who regularly tell you that given the chance they will kill you.  What are you going to do...give'em a 5 star hotel room, hot chocolate and a hug so they'll feel better?  Give me a break.

[Wmaker]

R4M, How many actual Taleban members took part to these attacks? I've understood that the terrorist training camps were organized by Osama Bin Laden not by Taleban regime and that the ones trained there weren't part of the Taleban. Why would USA otherwise negotiate with Taleban about releasing Osama Bin Laden to USA? If the Taleban as a whole was behind the attacks why couldn't they start the bombing campaing right away against the enemy?

Originally posted by Udie at Work
The main diference would be that we would be alive and they would be dead.

According to what I've seen and heard the way Taleban Regime treated Afganistan and its people they are with out a doubt scum of the earth. But I think it's (at least it should be) pretty obvious that if USA is a free, democratic, civilized country something that Eagler suggested isn't an option. Actually I don't even understand why I have to explain this to anyone. At least I've understood no one can be judged without a trial in USA at least that's the way it is in Finland.

Originally posted by Udie at Work
You know you might want to consider how benificial it is right now to be anti-american.  People here are pissed at that attitude after 60 years of helping the world.  It would be real easy for us to stop and take care of ourselves.  Where would the world be then?

Well this is something I don't want to get into. It has been fought in these boards over and over again. With just one sentence I made you say I'm anti-american? And the reason for this was the fact that I like trial-idea more than a lynch-mob one? Interesting.

One thing I don't like and that's this "world savior-attitude" some americans have. I'm grateful for the way World War 2 ended. But I bet that the people who survived the bombing of Dresten for example may not agree with this "helpers of the world-idea". They were europeans too just like the british for example. These things aren't black and white.

(Edited because of grammar and typos.)

[GRUNHERZ]

The USA has the world savior attitude because so many of modern Europeans states are gutless sissies that are afraid to act. Even if it happening in the middle of diddlying Europe! diddlying rutabagas cant do anything without US leadership.


Untill I see little sissy boys Francois, Goeffrey or Luigi guarding those scum I suggest  that all Europe simply shup up about this.

[Wmaker]

Go on GRUNHERZ, you're really helping your case with every word you type.

[Dowding]

Grunherz - exactly where did you run away from again? Was it that troublesome little collection of countries containing people unable to get on with each other for 5 whole minutes, without butchering each other?

You readily criticise other nations for not helping to police the world, yet your own nation requires outside help to actually exist as an independant state. People in glasshouses...

Let's get a little more specific here. It is your compatriots who apply for assylum (or actually enter illegally anyway) and are given better accomodation and a LOAD more money than a battered/raped BRITISH woman who seeks to get away from her husband. There's an example from personal experience.

I wouldn't complain too loudly if I were you - Britain has done plenty for your region of the world. As is still doing so.

[Udie at Work]

One thing I don't like and that's this "world savior-attitude" some americans have. I'm grateful for the way World War 2 ended. But I bet that the people who survived the bombing of Dresten for example may not agree with this "helpers of the world-idea". They were europeans too just like the british for example.These things aren't black and white. [/QUOTE]


 Well you see,  the people of Dresden at that time were Germans and as such our enemy.   Do I agree with carpet bombing of cities?  NO  but the technology didn't exist yet back then.  And actually if you look at it,  the USA was already trying to limit the loss of civilian life with all the radar and radio guided bombing they started trying to make the drops more accurate.  Also,  my statement was not referring to WW2 or WW1, but the 60 years that have passed since ww2.  We have been the world's saviors, simply because there was no other country willing or able to do so, so we stepped up to the plate.   Most of the time I'm ok with this and happy that we did,  I think the world is a better place than it would have been had we not.

 We have a constitution which should guide our government in everything it does, but it hasn't for many many many years.  I've got a copy of it right here at my desk.  I've looked it over and see nothing that tells me that a POW has any right to claim any of the rights in our THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA'S[/i] constitution.  Those rights are ours, we faught and died for them.  We give those rights to people who come to our country, but that will always be subject to change.  These people declared war on us, not the other way around, and then they attack our largest city.  They are lucky that they haven't been tortured or skinned alive or just plain shot in the back of the head at the point of capture.

 There's no point in arguing this.  We have them and will do with them how we see fit.  It will be fair, far far more fair than any rights they afforded any of their civilian targets.  That would be women and children.  Let's compare the differences in human rights between the Taliban, Al Queda and the USA...

this is how the Taliban feel about the subject... remember the women ware blue...


 Now here's Al Queda's view on the topic....



Ok, this is what Europe is in an uproar about?



 Anybody who thinks we are abusing their human rights is off of his/her head.   So go piss off!  We got the ball and know how to run the play......

[Peer]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So peer it seems after all this time that some in Germany still have a lil "something" for their Jewish friends......

Its not important if anyone is jewish, christian or muslim or whorshipping what god he likes.

The important point is not to close your eyes if someone you call a friend or ally behaves like a terrorist.

But its not only Israel which is a barbaric and terroristic regime.

Just another example of a wothy ally in the front of the anti-terrorist-alliance - LOL:

The muslim Saudi-Arabia is also a terroristic regime.

You blame the Taliban for cutting off hands, hanging people or stone others to death because of their orthodox point of view of the Islam.

That was right - this had to be blamed.

But all these things also happens day by day in Saudi-Arabia, where women even have not the right to drive alone a car.

So - to come back to my starting point - again my question:

How could you fight terrorism effectively if you tolerate terroristic friends and ignore their crimes?

[midnight Target]

The "World Savior" view comes not just from being on the winning side of ww2. It comes mainly from the aid and assistance given to most of the countries in Europe after the war and beyond. We are talking about the Berlin Airlift, the Marshall Plan, the almost complete support of the UN and NATO. CARE, Peace Corps, and other humanitarian relief organizations I can't recall off the top of my head. Dresden was bad, many were killed. I would wager that many many more were saved through our good graces after the war than were ever killed in the bombing of a legitimate war target.

The 2nd A-bomb was used because the message needed to be sent that there were more where that came from. We only had 2. There was a real concern that Japan might assume that it took us 4 years to build 1 and our wad was shot.  


On a side note, Finland was the 1st and I believe only country to actually repay its war debts to the USA.

[GRUNHERZ]

Yea Dowding my country did need help to sort its stuff out. And it only came when the USA became more involved- the Euros made a diddlying mess of it. The war only endeed in 1995 when the USA started bombing Serb positions and urged the RAF to help. The war ended when the USA helped the Croatian military plan the 1995 summer offensive that retook about 35% of of our countrys terrority. Then the USA helped the Croatian military get together with the Bosnian military and stop bickering and then we drove out the invaders from many areas of Bosnia too. And where exactly did the peace talks occur? Remember now where it was?  cmon Dowding where now old boy. Dayton Ohio in the USA.

Europe was and is totaly gutless these days- even the USA had to take lead in the Kosovo battle. All the Europeans can do is just "peacekeep".....  Why doesnt Europe take a greatewr role in  actual military fighting. Why are your governments such pathetic weakilings? Wht do you always need the USA to hold your hand and defend you? Why are you such patheci cowards who are afraid of battle? Why Dowding? Maybe its because you are so busy prosecuting people selling bannanas in lbs instead of kg.

Pathetic!

[Udie at Work]

wow my first double post in a year...

[Udie at Work]

Originally posted by midnight Target
The "World Savior" view comes not just from being on the winning side of ww2. It comes mainly from the aid and assistance given to most of the countries in Europe after the war and beyond. We are talking about the Berlin Airlift, the Marshall Plan, the almost complete support of the UN and NATO. CARE, Peace Corps, and other humanitarian relief organizations I can't recall off the top of my head. Dresden was bad, many were killed. I would wager that many many more were saved through our good graces after the war than were ever killed in the bombing of a legitimate war target.

The 2nd A-bomb was used because the message needed to be sent that there were more where that came from. We only had 2. There was a real concern that Japan might assume that it took us 4 years to build 1 and our wad was shot.  


On a side note, Finland was the 1st and I believe only country to actually repay its war debts to the USA.

 uh oh he screwed up bigtime!  He got a conservative and a liberal to agree!!  Better watch out budy! You're in for it now!!!!!!!  


and thanks Finland S!

[GRUNHERZ]

Let me ask in another way.....

If,  and its doubtful because Europe, well except Britain,  is irrelevant in real world affairs, Al Qaeda attacks a European city like they did New York. Is there any doubt that the US military will end up doing the real figting. I cant think the popsicle germans and french of today can defend themselves. They rather dress nice and look in the mirror. It will be US boys defending those rutabagas- and you guys know it.

Now break out that mirror and cologne.

[Peer]

Yes Grünherz, you are absolutely right.

How could I humble european forget the great US-victories in the past - like the great one in Vietnam or like the great one in Somalia or like the great one in freeing the hostages in Iran without any losses or like the great one in deposing Saddam Hussein and putting him to justice or like the great victories against the superpower-military nations of Panama and Grenada whoi threatened the weak european nations.

Oh - I also forget to mention the great victory against the Taliban.
Also a well equipped and dangerous nation.

Ok - maybe someone would say that it was not such a good idea to train Osama BinLaden by the CIA or to help Saddam during the war against Iran - especially if you consider that these  Frankenstein-monsters finally turned against their masters.

But again: You are really a tough nation and we have to praise you and your straight policy day by day.

Just one thing :

KEEP GERMAN PRETZELS AWAY FROM YOUR PRESIDENTS !!!!

Maybe we are not tough any longer but our pretzels are still  dangerous

[brainless]

OK, that far i tried to be nice, but after what you just have written, i´m getting angry. Before you ask, believe me one thing, i´m for sure not anti - American, au contraire mon ami, i used to work with American soldiers for a long time and have many American friends.
But after that trash you are writing here one could say i feel personnally insulted.

Yes i´m German, and i´m proud of it!
What the Federal Republic of Germany did after WWII is great.
Thanks to America to help us to get back on our feet after the war. Btw, they for sure didn´t do it without any reason, Germany would have made a nice battlefield in case of WWIII....

But the moment you talk about Germany´s history, please consider that you are talking about the 3. Reich, not about the Federal Republic of Germany...otherwis some people might ask why all the Indians had to die or had to be dislocated....?!

Listen up Grünherz, if we Eoropeans are that bad, why the hell do you use a German name? The name of a great German pilot of WWII?
Please change it to a name of some American pilot...Buck Rogers perhaps.

Perhaps i should tell you about German rangers sitting in front of Bagdad, (btw just besides their American COMRADES, yes, both sides think that! )guiding American bombs in their targets, or i should tell you about German KSK members hunting Serb officers in the country that obviously seems to be your old place of living.....i could even tell you about German ECR bombers hunting down Serb SAM launchers...but i won´t discribe it further...

But i have a question for you.... how on world can any country help itself if all inhabitants who are able to defend their ideals leave it? I dunno, but i won´t leave my country, even if i was hunted or it layed in ashes...i would fight for my ideals!!

[Wmaker]

Originally posted by Udie at Work
Well you see,  the people of Dresden at that time were Germans and as such our enemy.   Do I agree with carpet bombing of cities?  NO  but the technology didn't exist yet back then.  And actually if you look at it,  the USA was already trying to limit the loss of civilian life with all the radar and radio guided bombing they started trying to make the drops more accurate.  Also,  my statement was not referring to WW2 or WW1, but the 60 years that have passed since ww2.  We have been the world's saviors, simply because there was no other country willing or able to do so, so we stepped up to the plate.

Well there was no need to bomb Dresten. It had been largely unbombed before that raid. It had no industrial targets. Dresten was bombed for de-moralisation purposes. Germans indeed needed de-moralisation in february 14th 1945...Ever thought about the fact that Al Queda probably thought the same way about New York as you think about Dresten? For the record I'll state the obvious: I see no justification on 9.11.2001 attacks. The saddest thing apart from loosing the lives of more than 3000 people is the fact that there is a new level of terroristic attack of which terrorists are going to try to top. IMO the world changed that day as a whole to the worse direction .

I'm sure USA tries to avoid civilian casualties but honestly if that would be one of its main concerns I doubt it would be using B-52s. I know they aren't just B-17s with jet engines but from the footage I've seen from Afganistan it's easy to understand why bombs have missed their intended targets.

Well, my problem is that some americans think that your country is the only one which has ever done anything good to this world. The war wasn't fought on USA's soil so of course it was more able to help than Europian countries after the war.

Originally posted by Udie at Work
We have a constitution which should guide our government in everything it does, but it hasn't for many many many years.  I've got a copy of it right here at my desk.  I've looked it over and see nothing that tells me that a POW has any right to claim any of the rights in our THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA'S[/i] constitution.  Those rights are ours, we faught and died for them.  We give those rights to people who come to our country, but that will always be subject to change.  These people declared war on us, not the other way around, and then they attack our largest city.  They are lucky that they haven't been tortured or skinned alive or just plain shot in the back of the head at the point of capture.

There's no point in arguing this.  We have them and will do with them how we see fit.  It will be fair, far far more fair than any rights they afforded any of their civilian targets.  That would be women and children.  Let's compare the differences in human rights between the Taliban, Al Queda and the USA...

You speak about PoWs and that they declared war on you. Well AFAIK US Goverment doesn't think that way. I don't quite know the word in english but US has named them "as independent fighters" or something? This way they can be treated differently in court. That's funny because Bush said that 9.11 attacks were acts of war. But now they deny that Taleban prisoners have anything to do with war. You said that your constitution applies US citizens only. That is true but I think USA has signed Geneva convention...maybe that's the reason they aren't rated as PoWs? I hope you notice that I haven't made a single remark that US is treating these prisoners badly. So if you got worked up at me about that there's no reason for it.

My point is this: Do you or do you not agree with Eagler's statement?

If USA would act the way Eagler wanted that Human rights cap between USA and Taleban would be much more narrow.