CENSURE certain squad name ?

[Glasses]

Political Correctness  shows its ugly face yet again. A new level of the obsurde has been reached, for Cod's sake furget about it. If they want to call themselves Waffen SS or I bomb yer bellybutton till ya firebomb burn civilians it's ONLY A FRIGGIN GAME NO MATTER WHAT YOU NAME A SQUAD THE FINAL OUT COME WILL BE YOU SHOOT ME I SHOOT YOU . Get pissed at that squad you nail it with all you have. Don't start streching the concept of what is right or wrong with what has actually happend in real life .  If it offends you tough luck, if they are not directing anything directly towards you ,you do not need to worry or complain, let them be...If i recall this is not comunism or some sort of cheap dictatorship ,again just let them be.

In regards to calling the SS butchers(I'm not defending the SS in any way) is highly hypocritical hence the civilian losses inflicted on the german people in the war by the Allies was in vast quantities ,burned bodies destroyed towns and killed children..So don't go biased and say oh the German people had to pay for supporting such an evil man..but still they were innocent civilians mostly women ,old men ,and children

Both sides did horrible things even those famous squadrons in the MA.

[This message has been edited by Glasses (edited 07-04-2000).]

[straffo]

Glasses ,
for me it's not a matter of what the regular allied or german soldier have done during their duty.

I know as others that war is violent and cruel!

It's 1st the respect for the fallen,
2nd a way to learn to some history impaired that they are wrong,3rd avoid advertisement for an ugly political system ,4th I'll be equally shocked by a "Ku Klux Clan" squadron so I will not be involved such a game.

And yes the Waffen SS were having a deliberate criminal behaviour during the war it was a part of their training/choice!

[maik]

besides all the political arguments - I follow Redwings post here 100%!-, The "waffenSS" wasn't even 1 Military Unit, like a squad, at all.

I am wondering what kind of people and why they come up with such a name.

Maik

[Downtown]

Okay, I say ban FUBARS while your at it.

It doesn't mean Fixed Up Beyond All Recognition.

The First word is offensive to me BAN IT!



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"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
    lkbrown1@tir.com    
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!

[Jigster]

While this is a little off topic the subject at hand, somewhere along the way a comparison came up of the allied air crews and the Waffen SS.

I look at it this way. To those who have never been to a holocaust museum. GO. It may make you sick to your stomach but it something that must be done to remind us of the past.

I think the comparison was really ridiculous. Alot were fighting just to preserve their way of life, in the case of Europeans, namely the British who were forced to fight off an invasion, and the rest of Europe that had already lost their homeland. Most of the Americans were drafted, and were their because they had to be. I can't think of any allied crew that stated they felt what they were doing was "right" morally, and had the basic mindset that if this wasn't stopped here and now, it never would. Ask any bomber crew about moral during those raids. It's not like the highlight of their day was killing civilans.

In the case of the SS, I am baised from knowing many holocaust survivors in the Houston area and a neighbor who survived iterogation by an SS officer in early '44.
These people had no problems taking orders, they lived them. (But considering many had grown up in the Nazi political machine it's not suprising).

It's in the past, and hopefully will never happen again.

But when looking at it in hindsight, I find it troubling that people who were fighting for their way of life, or forced by orders are compared to people who willingly commited such act without question, reason, or morals.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled PC issue flame war.

- Jig

[Daff]

"GO. It may make you sick to your stomach but it something that must be done to remind us of the past."

Exactly the same can be said about the A-bomb museum in Hiroshima.

Daff

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CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"

[-ammo-]

TY downtown! My point exactly.

[Naso]

Sorry Jig, but i disagree...

Do you think it's obeying orders or defending homeland:

[list=1]

• Strafing civilian columns of escapees from front line (and if you ever fly at low alt, you know that you CAN see if they are civilian or not).
• Carpet bombing a city without any military objective as escuse (Dresda's citizen can tell you).
• Rape womans and kill mens when "liberate" a small town (happens lot of time in Italy, especially with the colonial troops the Free France sent there).
• Hold in a lager american citizen because of their japan origin (lot of them died).
[/list=a]

And so on...

The point is: war is hell, and nobody can say "we have done the right think in the right way", the big difference between allied and axis was the first win and the second loose, and from the beginning of humankind, who loose is the bad guy, the winner is the good guy.

I am glad the allied wins, because i dont like the nazi and fascist doctrine, but the price was high, and we dont have to hidden this with old propaganda stuff.

Atrocities are common in both parts in every war fought in world, but the winner tend to "forget" the think they have committed, and point the finger on those of the looser.

Before jumping up and flame me, i invite you to think about the different way you see two very similar wars: Vietnam and Afghanistan.

In the first you see the colonialist nation as the "good ones" and the rebels as "bad guys", 'cause USA was the colonialist nation.
In the second the nasty and freedom killer USSR is the bad boy, and the fierce and good people of Afghanistan are the good boys, because USSR was the West country's enemy.

But both of them where the same old dirty colonial wars.

Fact is that Nazi make genocide, this make them different?

If you look back on history, you'll see:

Armenian
Kurds
Native americans
Crusades
Early christians

and others, for sure... somethink to think about.

I am not justifying the horrible thinks the Nazi did in WW2, i want to be clear in this  

Just to let you know was'nt the first time, and (sad think  ) was not the last.

Stopping to be OT, if someone want to form a squad named after some Waffen SS unit, this is an historical sim, for me is not a problem.

If someone else, shooting at my chute, says "this is the end Italians deserve" (i start worrying a little (and this has happened), but it's still a game  .

When, watching news, i see people walking down the road in the uniform of the KKK, i start wondering about the mother of stupids, always pregnant.

Finally when i see people of a strong italian party, now selfcalling democratic, passing near a famous building in Piazza Venezia in Rome acting the Roman Salute (the salute Nazi and fascist share), i understand the thinks are not changed, or changed only in appareance.

Is not the name that make the difference.

[Kats]

Actually, the first Genocide of the 20th Century was the Armenians (in Turkey) 1,200,000 dead. To this day, the Turks deny it. When it happened, the world turned a blind eye.

Interestingly, when Hitler's closest advisors querried him on the Jewish question and how it would make Germany look in the worlds eyes, he replied:

"Who remembers the Armenians?"

Meanwhile, we are still Allied with this country (strategic ports) when they have not made even an apology or reparations for this crime. Not only that, they're at it again. This time slaughtering Kurds - whole villages! I've personally seen pictures that people have risked their lives to smuggle out of that country documenting these atrocities.

Last time I heard, the US was a democracy. The will of the people through government. I find it hypocritical to jump on this fellows bad taste in a game, when in real life with real lives you sit by and watch.

[Travis]

My first thought - there's always one, groan. I would have thought anyone against historical fascism would be the first to promote freedom of speech and freedom of choice.
Don't make the mistake of thinking that the Allies were all clean - Remember, history is written by the winners. Rewritten even by Hollywood - Showing U110 being relieved of Enigma secrets (actually the bi-gram tables) by US, when all that happened ages before US invited the Japs to Pearl.
It's a game, it's a name, no-one's getting hurt, so just leave 'em alone.

[Minotaur]

The Nazi's hold the record I believe, 5 million or so?

BTW you don't have to win a war to write history.

------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"One more dead brain cell and you're a talking monkey."
Yankee

[easymo]

 I would think that german players would be upset. For the number of Germans the SS killed (jews, gypseys, gays, political dissadents, ect. If for no other reasons.

 I cant imagin a free internet being available under the nazi system. They might even have chucked a few of you fellows into the ovens.

[Jigster]

I was trying not to defend the Americans, or any of the allies for that matter, just trying to give it another prespective. Alas I'm baised, as I said, because I've met quite a few Holocaust survivors, and several old gentlemen with the 8th AF. While it is only a small prespective I view it was valid because they lived it.

Death is death, be it instant vaporization or, fear of death every moment in a concentration camp. May death be all around, watching and wondering if today will be the day, or from a empire that has been warned of complete destruction but insists of sacrificing it's people's lives to embrace it's crumbling empire. Death lurks in the house of the German family hiding in their stair well, as it does to their counterparts in Britain, and the GI in the foxhole, or the soilders marching in the bitter Russain winter, those on the ships at Pearl, the Uboat crews hunted from above, the exhausted German pilot squeezing in one last sortie for the fatherland, the tail-end charlie. Death is everywhere, for that is what war is.

It comes down to one thing, a man fighting for his beliefs, alongside men who believe the same.


I guess I have no real problem with "Waffen SS", although the name is not offensive, the images it provokes are. As long as their can be a bomber squad called "The Lucky Bastards Club" I recommend the PC brigades lay down their arms.  

And if I ever make it to Japan I will visit that museum, as with any other historical sight that I can manage. Same goes with Europe. The Holocaust museum in Houston is on no historic grounds. It is on the outskirts of a Jewish community who payed for, and run it. But for what it's worth it, it is no different looking into those pictures than it is walking on the beachs of Normandy, the Arizona, Hiroshima, Berlin, London, Bastonge, Stalingrad, or place where such horrible things happen.

- Jig

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by Minotaur:
The Nazi's hold the record I believe, 5 million or so?

BTW you don't have to win a war to write history.

more then 6 million  

And that's just Jews.

- Jig

[ezrust]

I think the name is immature and stupid but I would fight to the death for the right of this immature, stupid person to name his squad whatever immature, stupid name he desires.  Do I like neo-nazis?  Lord, no.  But do I like living in a country where they have the right to assemble?  Very much so.