Author Topic: P51's vs FWa5's in SEA; ROE Discussion (Read 1080 times)

Hangtime · « **Reply #30 on:** July 06, 2000, 12:21:00 PM »

Whoa..

Lets keep a positive spin on this.. Hristo is doing what I would expect him to do.. get as good an enviornment as he possibly can; and I can't fault him for it.

I'm suggesting we get a level playing field; and for the most part; we all seem in agreement. Visbility is a massive problem and we all know it. I say Icons ON. 15k merge.

How say you Hristo?? A level playing field.. your A5's have better climb and manuverabilty and roll performance at those alts than a pony.. all the pony has is a speed edge. Not much use in a mele' fight; which is what we both want.

C'mon.. we can do this. So can you.

Hang

Ripsnort · « **Reply #31 on:** July 06, 2000, 12:29:00 PM »

Hang, is that a 15k hard ceiling merge, or 15k merge? FYI, I could have everyone climb away from fight to 30k, dive to 600 IAS and level out at 15k...I will partake in any event where theirs a hard ceiling, I will not in one where someone says "15K merge'...

Zigrat · « **Reply #32 on:** July 06, 2000, 12:30:00 PM »

i think icons are ok. and ill be flying lw. i would prefer if icons only had a range of 3k instead of 8k but thats ok, i dont think wecan change that.

Toad · « **Reply #33 on:** July 06, 2000, 12:37:00 PM »

Rip,

Just tossing out an idea here...maybe a 15k merge with a "no faster than" speed limit at the merge? It could be different speeds for different aircraft, you could require filming for compliance.

IIRC, Hang was always slower at the merge than Hristo anyway, wasn't he?

Of course, then we could argue about "what speed?" too!

Zig...yah, wish HTC would play around with icons a bit. Or at least make them more configurable in the SEA. BTW, you still wanna do that cannon test?

Ripsnort · « **Reply #34 on:** July 06, 2000, 12:45:00 PM »

Toad, I think we should keep it to what a duel would be except of course with a hot-guns merge. In the dueling ladder, when the challenger says "15k", it means 15k HARD CEILING...

Just my opinion.

jmccaul · « **Reply #35 on:** July 06, 2000, 12:52:00 PM »

If this is supposed to be Allied v Axis who's better? Why don't the allies give themselves a better chance and use spit 9's or yaks

or this could happen

http://www.flightsimulator.de/b-17ii-part2/096.jpg

Toad · « **Reply #36 on:** July 06, 2000, 12:52:00 PM »

Well, Rip...then are you going to give them 45 minutes to climb to 15k, level off and acclerate to their max speed?

Like I said, just a thought...

Ripsnort · « **Reply #37 on:** July 06, 2000, 12:57:00 PM »

Yes, Toad, I think that both should be at least a couple airfields apart, however I don't think it would take 45 min.

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 07-06-2000).]

Vermillion · « **Reply #38 on:** July 06, 2000, 01:21:00 PM »

jmmcaul, I was thinking the same thing just a few minutes ago.

Or even if it is Luftwaffe vs US, then I would take a P-38, which matches up to a A5 much better than a P51 in a duel.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

F4UDOA · « **Reply #39 on:** July 06, 2000, 02:02:00 PM »

Why not level the playing field a little. Move the merge to 25K. That was the critical altitude of the B17 and it is the historic meeting point for these air battles. That way the camolflage won't come into play so quickly and the likelyhood of an immediate low speed turning fight is reduced. It gives both sides a chance to dive away or compress and it will give seperation for smaller engagements. Then reform and fight again.

15K is to low for historic rematch. Or at least stagger the alt's of various A/C. Maybe use P-47's at 25K, P-51's at 20K and F4U's or Spits at 15K. The Bf109G10 25K,
Fw-190A-8 at 20K and A5 at 15K.

Icons should be on. The resolution of a flight simm simply does not provide for iconless play at this point. Especially when it gives on side an advantage. Otherwise move it over the water where it gives neither side an advantage(unless you in an F4U).

By the way, if you haven't seen Nashes web site on this encounter you must. It is priceless. http://www.intergate.ca/personal/cwharton/intro.html

Later
F4UDOA

Hristo · « **Reply #40 on:** July 06, 2000, 02:28:00 PM »

F4U, Luftwaffe misses some planes for your historical scenario, while US has all of them.

We still need the Dora, Me 410 and of course, the 262.

Icons on, you say ? 262 then

Hangtime · « **Reply #41 on:** July 06, 2000, 04:48:00 PM »

Ouch.. we have an impasse then. I do not wish this discussion to degrade into an endless circle-jerk. We ask for a fair fight... no less. I am not trying to gain an adavantage.. just something close to tactical parity. I'm asking the LW to draw on it's skills; not on gambits that give them the upper hand in ALL tactical areas prior to the fight.

I will not lead troops to an iconless slaughter! That's out! Icons on; or my involvment ceases. (hang draws line in sand)

Next; Merge conditions.

Merge alts with a hard deck prior to merge again favor the LW... the one thing a pony can bring to the fight is speed. The LW is attempting to cancel the P51's only advantage in this duel by limiting speeds via pre-merge hard-decks. I say NO!

If the LW insists on a pre-merge hard deck that is the same as merge alts; then the merge alts will be MINUMUM 25k with a distance of at least 25 miles sep after merge alt is attained. I WILL NOT accept any rulings that limit the ponies speed prior to merge!! If they want a lower merge altitude, then dammit; they can remove the pre-merge hard-deck conditions. (second line in the sand)

Now; again; how say you LW?? And this time, stop dancing! Start negotiating! I am NOT discussing anything other than a A5 vs P51 match in this thread at this time.. combined element fights; multiple A/C type open combat, etc can and WILL be handled as seperate issues AFTER we get THIS one done!

Hang

F4UDOA · « **Reply #42 on:** July 06, 2000, 07:50:00 PM »

Hristo,

Do you have any good numbers on how many allied A/C were shot down by the 262 or 163?
I know the 262 was used as a Jabo primarily until late 1944. The problem with the Jet
is that they did not have an significant impact on the allies bomber or fighters enough to make the allies react.
The Bell YP-59 was flying in Jan.1944 but was never pressed into service because their was no need. Same for the F8F Bearcat, F4U-4 and P-47M. But none of these A/C were needed enough to push them into service one minute ahead of schedule. Where as the Germans were flying a Rocket plane that killed as many flying it as it did shooting. Remeber the
P-80 was in service by war's end also and in much greater numbers than the 262.

Basically I say yes to the Dora maybe to the 262 as long as it's numbers are proportional to there numbers in wartime. Say one Me-262 available for every 100 109's and 190's. The 163 even less frequently.

The Icons are not a historic problem. They are a computer resolution problem. I was chasing a Zero yesterday and he almost completely dissapeared into the terrain. I mean gone and I was 200yrds behind him. This was not a advantage. It was the Romulan cloaking machine. Anyway I'll be there even if we fly with bags on our heads.

See ya
F4UDOA

Zigrat · « **Reply #43 on:** July 06, 2000, 07:52:00 PM »

I think 15k. both sides at their respective max speeds at the merge is fair. 25k is ridiculous. and IMHO icons are okay.

Hangtime · « **Reply #44 on:** July 06, 2000, 08:50:00 PM »

Zigrat.. I think thats a reasonable compromise. Planes at max speed,
merge at 15k; Icons on. Will Hristo agree?

And thanks Zig.. I want this fight as much as u guys do.

Salute!

Hang