This thread is about IRAQ

[Elfenwolf]

Originally posted by Cabby44
A "union" of Arab states isn't worth the paper it's printed on .......

BTW, you hand-wringers ready and willing to pay $5 a gallon and up for gasoline(if you can find any) if and when Iraq invades Saudi Arabia??   Don't think it can't happen, the Saudi's and Iraqi's despise each other.  Some stupid "union" or not.......

Arabs are six-faced and triple-hearted.  Pay no attention at all to what Arab "leaders"(re: repressive despots)say.  Pay attention to what they do..............

Cabby

Cabby, the Saudi and the Iraqui representatives to the Arab League just kissed and made up in front of the whole wide world. Bottom line? The Arabs consider the USA to be a bigger threat than Sadaam. But reading between the lines of your question- "Are you hand wringers willing to pay 5 dollars a gallon for gasoline"- well, hell yes, if it can avoid the loss of even ONE American (or other coalition) kid's life. Hell, I'd give up both my cars and my boat and WALK to work every day if there was a guarantee that no more of our children would have to die in a war. What the hell do YOU drive, a Ford Exposition? And the right to drive your gas guzzler is paid for with the blood of our children???

Your statement "Arabs are six-faced and triple-hearted" shows the general disregard so many of us so-called "civilized" Westeners display towards those we choose not to take the time to understand. Aren't you curious WHY the Arab League has come out in such broad support of Sadaam Hussein? Why do they interpet our response to 9-11 as imperalism and an attack against Islam?

Now I'll tell you something you can absolutely take to the bank as a Gospel Truth. For every Taliban we kill we create two more. For every rock-throwing Palestenian kid that's killed by Israelis two more will take his place. Every time an American recon squad rips apart a village and frisks all the residents and arrests all the males we create even more enemies.
These people don't know about 9-11 other than it's a great victory against Satan that has brought the Beast amongst their midst to exact revenge,  and they are prepared to meet the Beast and to maybe even defeat it. How do you fight what is in the heart of someone?

[weazel]

He's a gibbering idiot.

[Samm]

I'd wager that Iraq DOES have a tiny nuclear arsenal . Remember they had a nuclear power plant once . But Isreal destroyed it in 89. Of course this earned those barbarous isrealis a lot of condemnation from the rest of the world including the US . A few years later we were asking them to show restraint when Iraq was shooting ballistic missles at them . Think about that, saddam had ballistic missles and a nuclear reactor 11 years ago .

Libya also has a practically impenetrable weapons plant inside of a mountain that has been operating for a decade at least .

[10Bears]

I'm with Toad on this issue. Our President said we're going in, so it doesn't really matter what the U.N. said. They'll change their position next week, anyway.

I wouldn’t be to sure about that Paul it DOES matter what the UN says otherwise we are in violation of international law.... the Rule Of Law???... remember that??? So instead of defeating one enemy we’ve created 10 more.... Oh no you have to get a UN resolution for this.. and they don’t seem to willing to vote for it.

But wait ...hold on .. I got another argument.... You rednecks understand money.. How much is this thing going to cost?  Operation Allied Force was only a few hundred million. One reason was one of our main bases was only 60 miles away in Italy. When you do operations in places like Afghanistan or Iraq it goes up into the TENS of BILLIONS of dollars. All the re-fueling the long distance to target.. it gets very expensive.  

I'm all for a fight. I have never liked anyone from the region. Those that have come to America, and have actually become Americans, I accept. The others are getting what they deserve at home.

Ah geese Voss what kinda argument is that.... you don’t like the people in the region...Good Gravy!

So lets review. Us taxpayers are told we have to foot the bill on this adventure told we must offer up our military aged kids.. told we must use caution everywhere in the world because of all the terrorists Why?... because President Bush wants to do revenge ops, or oil seizure ops.. nothing more...

And another thing Voss, President Bush is not king.. we don’t have kings he’s president and is accountable to the people of the United States and Congress. We don’t send our boys off without very good reason. Saddam has to have done something recently not ten years ago that’s ridiculous.

Like I said above, 15 countries have WMD they know the score. Saddam is ruthless but not insane he’s not going to light up a nuke in NYC that’s just silly. Besides he’s got his weapons stashed in the sand -- you’ll never find them..

You conservatives should urge your representives  to stop funding for this thing.. The rest of the world might vote sanctions ON US!!  Look, you’ve got 190 countries telling us this is wrong.. If 190 people tell you your wrong, don’t you at least consider their concern?

And Toads argument... “we got to attack them before they  attack us”
What?!!!!
That sounds like something the Germans would say back in 1940. We’ve got to look at the root cause of trouble in the middle east not cause more of it.

[Samm]

10Bears, I don't know where to start.

If Saddam Hussein having nuclear weapons isn't reason enough to be proactive nothing is .

Saddam won't use nuclear weapons ? Thankfully you're gifted with such clairvoyance, Now we can all breath a little easier. It's ok Saddam has nukes, he's not going to bomb anyone, that would be just silly !

 I can't believe you made such an arrogantly stupid statement, especially considering the recent state of the world .

No saddam is no more crazy than your average warlord despot, oh but wait, actually Mr Hussien  , you see he's a megalomaniac, and thats an established fact .

Mr Hussien hasn't done anything in 10 years ?! Have I unknowingly slipped into some wonderfull alternate reality and Saddam Hussien hasn't been a super criminal since 1991 ? Or is there a simpler explanation. hmm.

Oh and btw thanks for the Nazi analogy, was starting to fear we were going to end this conversation without one .

[Ping]

Iraq has WMDs', Libya, Pakistan, India, Israel, China (every freemans boogeyman), France (lord  help us, If only because its fun to pick on France).

  Pakistan and India are on the brink of disaster in that region and both have their own terrorist groups fighting for Kashmir.

 Saddam had the occasion to use WMDs' in defence during desert storm. Scuds were sent daily bearing HE.
 He didnt use them then and now we are being told that he is a threat to world peace because he has them.
 He did use them internally, true....But name 1 major power that has not used WMD against a foe in wartime. And that is not ancient history.
  I'm going to stretch here and propose that they have them for the same reasons that all of the other nations do, America included, If you try to annhilate us, we will use them.
 Iraq has been pushing for mainly 2 things, Americas withdrawl from the region and Israels pulling out of occupied territory.

 Now the Arab league is saying they will safegaurd the peace.
 Is the US Government So Godlike as to say the world can trust nothing other than what they themselves say or promise? Thats Arrogant political BS.
 The World didnt turn to the US for help on 911, they turned to them with sympathy. The US Gov then blackmailed the world by demanding that everyone had to take a side. Either with us , or against us. A Nuclear Power DEMANDING sides.

 Countries that were historically at odds with the US had sent there condolances and then afterwards were placed on the US' terrorist  hit list. toejam Now theres the way to work with a feuding neighbour.

 I think its time to pull outta this thread...It gets me all pissed off.
 

People all over the world are basically the same(other than the French ) Its the F#%!&@ Politicians that are ruining it for us.

[Samm]

If by WMB you mean chemical and biological weapons, i.e. antrhax, nerve gas, mustard gas . He gave the ok to his commanders to use that ordnance and some of them did . Thank goodness for NBC alarms, mopp suits, gas masks, and a lot of decon . Some of the other countries in the coalition have since acknowledged this .The US and UK never did . One reason I suspect is becuase we had a crapload of our own tactical NBC deployed to the area, or at least we made it look like we did .

 Don't you think it's odd that all the chem alarms that were going off at impact areas were "malfunctioning" .  They also said that scuds were being shot down by patriot missles, that is pure BS. Scud uses a ballistic warhead, what the patriots were acquiring and hitting were the falling boosters .

[Samm]

Speaking of Iraq's reluctance or lack there of to use WMD, weaponized anthrax, I suspect in the not too distant future we will have evidence that will leave no doubt that it's trail leads back to Iraq .

One could speculate that we allready have it. One could speculate that that is the reason for all the Iraq hubub as of late .

[Cabby44]

Quote:

"Cabby, the Saudi and the Iraqui representatives to the Arab League just kissed and made up in front of the whole wide world. Bottom line? The Arabs consider the USA to be a bigger threat than Sadaam. "

LOL!!  All righty then.......

BTW, the Arabs HATE the Jews and  want Israel to disappear.  The Arabs would kiss a pig if it meant the death of Israel.  Some of you are so damn naive it's breathtaking........

Without the free flow of oil at market prices it would mean worldwide economic disaster.  A Depression to rival the 1930's.  Take your anti-Capitalism diatribe and "not one more death" nonsense  and stuff it.......

Cabby

[Samm]

Carefull with the gross generalization Cabby .

 While I agree with you for the most part . All Arabs don't hate jews or americans, I have known arabs, egyptians, and they didn't hate anybody, they abhor the criminal acts of terrorists just like rest of the civilized world .

But I'm assuming you knew that, just your word choice created a statement of overgeneralization .

[Ping]

http://www.un.org/documents/scres.htm

 On another note...If the UN issues a resolution, should countries be bound to follow it?  If they are in violation of these resolutions should other countries then support them?

 All this Glorious talk of IRAQ not living up to sanctions in accord to resolutions..Gives the US government reason for Going in and Wiping out IRAQ. They support Terrorists, good lord, 1 mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter. Americas war of Independance relied heavily on guerilla tactics....unacceptable by "modern warfare" standards of the time. T'weren't very sporting after all.
 Where is the proof he is the Devil Incarnate and shipping terrorists worldwide to kill democracy. Why is the bulk of the world saying stay outta Iraq?

 We Now turn to Resolutions#1397 of 2002, #1337 of 2001 Reminding us of resolutions #242 of 1967  and also #338 of 1973

 Israel is in Violation of a number of resolutions still as of this date. The US Government continued to back them as an ally through this entire time period even though in Violation of Security Council Resolutions.

 Lets now turn back to Iraq. The US government CHOOSES to turn a blind Eye to whomever as long as it is convenient to their political agenda. Does not this blatant Hypocrisy give these Middle East Extremists (Whacko's) arguments against US efforts for peace in the area, especially when they are favouring and arming a country guilty of ignoring UN Resolutions?

 I really am trying to have reasonable discussion on this and am not Saying americans are evil...we are all like...Its Government Agenda I have the problem with.

[Ping]

Originally posted by Samm
Speaking of Iraq's reluctance or lack there of to use WMD, weaponized anthrax, I suspect in the not too distant future we will have evidence that will leave no doubt that it's trail leads back to Iraq .

One could speculate that we allready have it. One could speculate that that is the reason for all the Iraq hubub as of late .

 And Speculation is a very reasonable and Compelling reason to go to war. Saddam has possibly got or nearly has Nukes.
 No different from the other crackpots out there already holstering theirs.
 Hitler was a raving lunatic...yet the Germans didnt use their WMD during WW2. Begs the question..who has used theirs?

 Name the Countries in the world who have been polluting the atmosphere, oceans, or terrain with Nuclear fallout waste and generally haveing a grand ole time with their toys.
 SANE WORLD LEADERS, and I use that term loosely.
 I have yet to see Saddam pop one off.
 I will tell you that I'm more frightened of our wonderfull allies India and Pakistan than I am of Iraq. Hell both sides with terrorist groups opereating in country and at each others throats.
 But thats ok cause they are allies. I feel all sweet and tingly knowing that we will concentrate upon a rubble strewn backwater as opposed to the real threats against WORLD PEACE AND SECURITY.
 
 The governments should be looking at the causes..and not the symptoms. They are trying to cure the cold by stifiling the cough.

[Samm]

Ping it's pretty cut and dry, it's a matter of national defense and preservation .

If it is determined that Iraq played a part in attacking US with WMD which I suspect it will be . Then we must act to preemtively end and prevent future attacks .

If it is determined that Iraq possesses or is close to possessing atomic weapons we must do whatever it takes to prevent and end this, with or without a coalition, without a doubt. There is simply no other option .

If you suggest that we should sit idly by waiting for approval and do nothing but protest while our overt and deliberate enemy arms it's self . Well then you will be dissappointed .

On a side note, remember when Isreal destroyed Iraq's nuclear capability in 89 and the international community, even US, condemned them for it . But we all know that everyone is glad that they did it, except of course Saddam .

[Samm]

Originally posted by Ping


 And Speculation is a very reasonable and Compelling reason to go to war.

No it isn't and I never said it was so don't try to imply that I did .

 

Hitler was a raving lunatic...[/b]

No he wasn't, that's an exageration . And if he was alive today and seeking WMB you bet I'd support neutralizing him. You wouldn't ?

I have yet to see Saddam pop one off.[/b]

Are you willing to wait ? I'm not .

 

I feel all sweet and tingly knowing that we will concentrate upon a rubble strewn backwater as opposed to the real threats against WORLD PEACE AND SECURITY.[/b]

By this statement we can ascertain that you don't consider Saddam with WMD a real threat against world peace and security . OK I think that speaks for itself .
 
 

The governments should be looking at the causes..and not the symptoms. They are trying to cure the cold by stifiling the cough. [/B]

I think a more apt analogy of what "governments" are doing would be preventive medicine .

[Ping]

It isn't so cut and dried. Taking out Iraq has more to do with the fact that The US Government is pissed that they had unfinished business in IRAQ. Its just like that little exageration of babies being dashed to the floor from Kuwati hospital incubators. Its a hard sell to get public support for a war against IRAQ.
 Why...and explain why YOU know that Iraq shouldn't have nukes as opposed to say India, Pakistan, China, North Korea (if they have them) France, Israel who has threatened serious retaliatory actions in the past.
 I think Nukes are an abomination, and NO ONE should have them. But at the same time Who should Determine what is acceptable evidence. You? Me?
 INTERNATIONAL COURT OF LAW MAYBE?
 There is the problem I have. The US Gov. says its so, therefore to arms.
 The Government has been shown to Lie, Exagerate, Fornicate...ooops that was Clinton, and use pure unadulterated propaganda to support military action.
 Just because they say so, does not mean we have to accept it at face value.
The American Military had elements that just itched to get back to Iraq and finish them off, Is this just an excuse to do so?

 I mean hell, when the amercan government gets pissed off with a backwater look out, Cuba is still suffering from Pissing off the US Gov. How long has that been now? Are there still terrorist groups operating in the US for the Liberation of Cuba?

 Fine Establish the evidence of Iraqs involvement with terrorist acts against the American Homeland, but then introduce it in an international court of law. Untill that time...its just a vengefull act on the part of the US Gov.