Author Topic: Leave the MA alone  (Read 679 times)

Offline Hornet

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Leave the MA alone
« on: August 01, 2001, 02:05:00 PM »
I pay $30 monthly to HTC for air combat. I do not expect to walk into the European Air War. Nor on a weeknight, would I want to. I like being able to log into AH knowing I only have 40mins of flight time and be confident that I can get into a few scraps and put a little work into my acm.

Let me preface this a bit before going further; my background is in Air Warrior, and I think that game had both the respect for the MA and the respect for historical accuracy that this game seems to be in danger of being torn apart over.

In AW, scenarios were king. I know in my squad we jokingly referred to it as The Show, and I think it was widely acknowledged throughout the community that a pilot proved his worth in scenarios.

The MA was nothing more than a practice arena. There was no pretense of historical accuracy. The MA was there to get your reps in working on whatever part of your game needed work, deflection shooting, e-management, lead-turns etc. I'm not a diehard furballer or a pure K/D warrior either. I see them both as complimentary aspects in a fighter pilots skill set. I chase proficiency in both from month to month.

I'm also not saying I do not respect the skill set of "scenario flying", I respect it very much. But I've always felt that flying under scenario rules all the time actually hurts you as a pilot. Some skills are easier to maintain than others (take a year off and come back if you don't believe me). First thing that struck me after the time off was how I could stay alive quite well, but my ability to kill was suspect, then I'd start to press...and that's when I die. Your timing, gunnery, ability to track multiple enemies through a furball etc., these types of skills are so tough to keep current, so much so that you may feel like you've lost half a step in the MA even after a long scenario.  

It must be the Warbirds influence, but there seems to be a large push in AH to turn the MA into an ongoing scenario. In my opinion, that's a pipe dream. Unless you have 1 life to live and are flying under orders with a flight of guys depending on you to do your job, we're all just dweebs running on the hamster wheel.

This recent talk of killing dar and icons in the MA really concerns me. It seems like an effort to turn the MA into something its not. If there is enough people that want this, I think its best that HTC open up a HA, put the no dar, no icons, RPS etc. in that arena.

But in my mind, the MA will always be just practice. In a scenario setting, go ahead kill the dar, kill the icons. I'm confident that I can manage in that environment. I'm confident because my goal is to complete a defined objective, stay alive and win.

The realism settings are not an annoyance in a scenario because I'm not concerned about fitting the most practice into a short time period like I would be on an average weeknight in the MA. The MA currently has an AWACS lookdown gps display. So what? I'm not on the hamster wheel to prove I'm the second coming of Galland, I'm there work on my game.

I agree, forcing more "realistic" gameplay aspects into the MA will push people into flying with more of a scenario mindset. Where I disagree is the assumption that more of that type of flying is a healthy thing.
Hornet

Offline sling322

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Leave the MA alone
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2001, 02:12:00 PM »
Great post Hornet...I agree totally.  If you want historical match-ups, show up for scenarios.  I dont attend very many of them but I know the attendance isnt all that great.  There seems to be a lot of guys yelling for an HA but then they dont support the historical events when we have them, so what kind of message does that send to HTC?  I think Dale and Doug and the rest of the gang know what they are doing regarding the presence of a HA in the game....the numbers simply arent there yet.

Offline lazs1

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Leave the MA alone
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2001, 02:13:00 PM »
hornet..  i think your points are good and I agree with them.  I know if I take a couple of weeks off I will get murdered in the furballs for a while.

I agree that the MA should be a fun place to get in a couple of action filled sorties in your 40 min or so.   I wouldn't listen to much to the flabby vets on this board.  I really doubt that HTC will do much to hurt getting into the action in  the MA.  

recently, when field closure became too easy and thus action was slowed noticibly... it was fixed.
lazs

Offline dtango

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Leave the MA alone
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2001, 02:17:00 PM »
Amen brother.  Had me laughing about the "hamster wheel".  Thanks for a respectful, thought out post.  

Interesting that I also come from an AW background (of old- back in 93-94).
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"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline AKSWulfe

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Leave the MA alone
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2001, 02:19:00 PM »
My first online air combat sim/game was Confirmed Kill v.91 (late '93).. been flying ever since.

I agree with everything you said Hornet.
-SW

Offline Zippatuh

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Leave the MA alone
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2001, 02:23:00 PM »
Good post Hornet!  I like the Hamster wheel analogy also.   :D

Zippatuh

Offline skernsk

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Leave the MA alone
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2001, 02:46:00 PM »
There are very good points within your post Hornet.

My opinion is that some guys are getting bored and want to try something new and different from what we have now.  As a result we get IDEAS posted all over the Board here.

These IDEAS help HTC and Aces High evolve.  Some of the ideas are great and are implemented...others are WAY OUT THERE!  HTC knows their stuff and will implement a good idea when the time is right.

Until then....more snap shots and check 6's will appease the historic crowd and make AH more challenging.  
More snap shots and check 6's will enable busy virtual pilots like myself to take part in them.
We have a large scenario coprs and at any giving time I'm sure there is at least one available and flying in the MA every night of the week.  Lets put up a snap shot nightly for 1 week.....I'll bet the numbers steadily improve night to night.  
If they don't then it's obvious we are not ready to make drastic changes in the MA nor should we implement a HA!

[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: skernsk ]

Offline SpitLead

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Leave the MA alone
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2001, 02:47:00 PM »
I agree as well. I've been flying combat flight sims since 1993. Keep both separate but available.  Then you offer more to a broader audience who like different things.  I would enjoy some scenarios but not all the time.  Scenarios add more realism and teamwork to the mix with specific goals.  The MA has more a furball mentality but that's ok.  

Sometimes I get a bit frustrated in the MA because you will encounter many airplane types when engaging the nme.  Case in point, say I'm flying a Spitfire and engage a Zero and a FW190 (from 2 different axis countries).  You are now required to carefully balance your fighting tactics between BnZ with the Zero and TnB with the FW190.  Difficult to do.  Now throw in a P51 and a Yak and NOW what do you do??? I'd venture to say most historical pilots usually encountered only 1-2 nme aircraft types so their tactics were pretty stable since they were flying in an operational theatre against a single country.  Even with this situation, the MA as it stands now is a good place to fight.  Period.  

This brings me to my next topic on icons in the MA.  There's been a lot of talk about eliminating them.  Face it, in the MA, because of the  situation I've described, you need them.  P47s escorting B17s over Europe were pretty sure they'd intercept FW190s or ME109s.  Not Yaks, Zero's, Spits, P51, Hellcats, N1Ks, La7s etc.  Airplane icon types are necessary to equalize this situation of encountering many aircraft types.  Also, if for no other reason, because squad mates are also flying a mix of Allied and Axis airplane types, there is nothing that defines a con as friendly or not.  You're flying a P51 and your wingman is flying a N1K but other nme planes are ALSO N1Ks.  How do you tell them apart without some kind of icon? Enough said.

SpitLead out!

Offline Seeker

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Leave the MA alone
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2001, 03:00:00 PM »
Perfect posting, Hornet.

Thanks.

Offline AN

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Leave the MA alone
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2001, 03:10:00 PM »
Hornet:
-------------------------------------------
In AW, scenarios were king.

...

The MA was nothing more than a practice arena.
-------------------------------------------

Exactly the way I've always seen it.  

It's been pretty frustrating, though, to find out that in AH scenarios are not king, not queen, not even rook, knight, or bishop.  Hell, I think it'd even be a stretch to call them 'pawn'.  :(

anRky

Offline deSelys

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Leave the MA alone
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2001, 03:31:00 PM »
Really good post, Hornet. I still don't agree 100% with you, but you're the first one (since a long time) who really explain his point calmly and exhaustively without trying to brute-force his ideas in other's minds....

Agreed: MA is the place to go when you want to fight (= have fun). MA can be considered as a general purpose training arena.
Scenarios are for historical setups/settings, where you have to prepare carefully your flight and never forget you only have one life.

Not so agreed: MA isn't an exclusively ACM training arena. Everybody should have the right to train and have fun there: furballers, lone-hunters, kamikazes, bomber-boys, drivers, sailors, chuters.... If you want to nurse a particular ACM at ease, it's always possible to grab a sparring partner and go to TA.

My only concern is some kind of tone-down of the difficulty (I don't use the world realism) in the MA with the time. I just don't want that too much concessions intended to make the game easier to newbies/lazy customers, turn this superb sim into some kind of Fighter Ace where 90% fly in the relaxed realism arena (= 3D Quake) while you can roam the Historical arena for hours without meeting someone. I still have shivers when I remember the horrid mixed-FM arena in Warbirds: nobody was flying 'easy' but the newbies, or so they said....but when they finally decided to turn back the arena on realistic FM, what a racket!!! Most people take the easy way when given the choice (I'm not different, i.e. I still let the fuel selection on Auto...)

Leave the MA as it is?...okay. Reduce a bit BAR/DOT settings? I'm all for it (cfr the last posts of
<A HREF="http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=010800)
But please don't tweak down DAR/icons/FM/gunnery settings anymore.
Too hard: the sim gets boring
Too easy: the game gets quickly boring as well

de Selys
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[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: deSelys ]

Godamn URL looks ugly but finally works!

[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: deSelys ]
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Offline Rude

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Leave the MA alone
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2001, 04:50:00 PM »
Heyas Hornet :)

As one who flew with you back in those old days, I couldn't agree with you more.

Thanks for your opinion and more importantly the manner in which you presented it.

Offline GunnerCAF

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Leave the MA alone
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2001, 08:31:00 PM »
Well said Hornet!!!  

Gunner <CAF>
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Offline Hornet

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Leave the MA alone
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2001, 08:35:00 PM »
heyas Rude, we'll have to wing up sometime  :)
Hornet

Offline Hornet

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Leave the MA alone
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2001, 09:20:00 PM »
Good points de Selys.

My focus has always been fighters, and my original post used acm as a primary example. But you are right, the MA is for everyone. I've never begrudged the buff guys, after all they often are the ones that win events for you  ;).

I'm in favor of the best flight models possible, the best ballistics and damage models possible. That's the meat and bones of the sim. I believe the goal for the MA should always be realistic combat, not a realistic air war. Leave the arena as the open, free-flowing, chaotic place that it is.  

I hope that coming out as an advocate for keeping the MA as it is doesn't label me as an "air quaker". A push to see the MA for what it is, while in turn seeking to give scenarios their proper place in the AH community benefits the realism side of AH far more of a service than simply advocating a new HA ever could (something that I am in favor of). I haven't flown an AH scenario yet, but if real-life is cooperative I aim too this fall.

I realize that different interests compel us to play this game. For some its a fascination with the machines of the time, for me it was a fascination with the men who flew them.

I wonder what Hartman, Sakai, Blakeslee, and the rest of that unique fraternity would say about our MA. Sometimes I think a place like that must exist somewhere for them. It's a fighter pilot's Nirvana. Almost as if there is a magical 30 minutes of time between when the last North American players logs for the night and the first Asian player logs on when those aces have a chance to fly. Their youths restored shiny new just like their famous mounts, they get to dance again, only this time free from their idiot commanders, the politics, the bitterness, the loss of war.
Hornet