Author Topic: 700y? 800y? 1000y? oooooooh yaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh  (Read 974 times)

Offline Seeker

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2653
700y? 800y? 1000y? oooooooh yaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2001, 03:42:00 AM »
Good website Jekyll, thanks!

Offline garrido

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 85
700y? 800y? 1000y? oooooooh yaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2001, 06:03:00 AM »
Friend's:

Moan so bad my english, does not allow to understand post of answer, asi well me that, you pardon if I commit any error.
 I continue saying that to GM this very badly modeled, being the difference between types of arms and others of the same very great caliber and epoca (Hispanic, type 99 versus MG151) (0,5 " versus MG131).
 Here watches the posted direction on the dispersion, and is surprising as that dispersion enlarges of incredible way as the distance separates of 300y of convergence. Quiza understands it bad, but if that is certain, it demonstrates that to AH this badly, if with 6/8 of 0,5 " single one few impacts are obtained so, surely nonda6naria one to the enemy airplane, with rastudmuffinas so short of Hispanic serious almost impossible to guess right. I asked and I requested answers. Who is able to guess right to a automovil to 1000y with rifle in movement (double size of wide that an airplane)? Nobody that flies LW to had these same problems habitually?
 On the other hand, always it is Lag? single there is lag when they go detras of my to 1000y (really they say that they are or they can be 700/800, and it even seems to me much distance like guessing right) but if I am really placed to 400 detras of the enemy airplane not this to 200/300 but that this to those 400y or can that but? explanation please.
 All those with which I have spoken have same lag that I? WHO MUST RESPOND to THESE QUESTIONS IS HTC, we must give ours opinion but we do not have to really discuss but we know I cosay that he uses HTC in the game.

 Swulfe friend, you the fact of being trainer gives reliability, if I say to him that I am trainer of the JG52 in AH, WB and WWIIOL in 109 that gives but credibility to my words? I instruct the pilots so that they fly coo was really made, so that they shoot to less of 300y like towards in 98% of the cases in the WWII (although soon in the MA I am a suicidal crazy person who does not respect the flight of the 109 and he puts it in TnB against nick or Spit, but the character can to me :)

 Lephturn Friend: Everything is not lag, but it is not it.

 Nashwan Friend: Certainly all the airplanes of AH estan bad in roll rate, but not as much as that 26%, except the 190 that goes below real his roll rate. Of the 109 I do not have data, although I believe that his roll rate to but of 375 mph must much be but slow that the present one, also I say that its control to baja/media speed is far below at which debio to be. Gustaria who HTC gave data me of CV of Spit IX, 109 G10 and 190A5/d9 at level of the sea, 10,000 ft. 15.000 ft and 20,000 ft, like max. weights of these airplanes, coefficient drag, acceleration, etc. know well as each type of airplane must conserve the E. If, the Spit can to turn, to conserve the best E and to accelerate like a ray, but is that the turns so closed, the ascents so pronounced that they make the Spits seem not to affect in the measurement that it must to be in reality to his E, and its recovery, by logic, it mustto be but slow.

 A greeting

SUPONGO


Lamento mi ingles tan malo, no me permite entender bien los post de respuesta, asi que, perdonad si cometo algun error.
Sigo diciendo que el GM esta muy mal modelado, siendo la diferencia entre unos tipos de armas y otras del mismo calibre y epoca muy grandes (hispano, type 99 vs MG151) (0.5" vs MG131).
Mire la direccion posteada aqui sobre la dispersion, y es sorprendente como esa dispersion se agranda de manera increible a medida que la distancia se separa de las 300y de convergencia. Quiza lo entienda mal, pero si eso es cierto, demuestra que AH esta mal, si con 6/8 de 0.5" solo se consiguen tan pocos impactos, seguramente no dañaria al avion enemigo, con rastudmuffinas tan cortas de hispano seria casi imposible de acertar. Pregunté y pedí respuestas.
 Quien es capaz de acertar a un automovil a 1000y con un rifle de precision en movimiento (doble tamaño de ancho que un avion)?
Nadie que vuele habitualmente LW a tenido estos mismos problemas?
Por otro lado, siempre es Lag? solo hay lag cuando van detras de mi a 1000y (realmente dicen que son o pueden ser 700/800, y aun me parece mucha distancia como para acertar) pero si yo me coloco a 400 detras del avion enemigo no esta realmente a 200/300 sino que esta a esas 400y o puede que mas? expliquemelo.
Todos aquellos con los que he hablado tienen el mismo lag que yo?
QUIEN DEBE RESPONDER A ESTAS CUESTIONES ES HTC, nosotros debemos dar nuestra opinion pero no debemos discutir realmente sino sabemos el codigo que usa HTC en el juego.
Swulfe amigo, segun usted el hecho de ser entrenador da fiabilidad, si yo le digo que soy entrenador del JG52 en AH, WB y WWIIOL en 109 eso da mas credibilidad a mis palabras?
Yo instruyo a los pilotos para que vuelen coo se hizo realmente, para que disparen a menos de 300y como se hacia en el 98% de los casos en la WWII (a pesar de que luego en la MA yo sea un loco suicida que no respeta el vuelo del 109 y lo meta en TnB contra nick o Spit, pero me puede el caracter  :) ).

Amigo Lephturn:

No todo es lag, ojala, pero no lo es.

Amigo Nashwan:

Ciertamente todos los aviones de AH estan mal en el roll rate, pero no tanto como ese 26%, excepto el 190 que va por debajo de su roll rate real. Del 109 no tengo datos, aunque creo que su roll rate a mas de 375 mph debe ser mucho mas lento que el actual, tambien digo que su control a baja/media velocidad es muy inferior al que debio ser.
 
Me gustaria que HTC diese datos de CV del Spit IX, 109 G10 y 190A5/D9 a nivel del mar, 10.000 ft. 15.000 ft y 20.000 ft, asi como pesos maximos de estos aviones, coeficiente drag, aceleracion, etc. Sabriamos bien como debe conservar la E cada tipo de avion.
Si, el Spit podria virar, conservar la E mejor y acelerar como un rayo, pero es que los virajes tan cerrados, las subidas tan pronunciadas que hacen los Spits parecen no afectar en la medida que deberia ser en la realidad a su E, y su recuperacion, por logica, deberia ser mas lenta.

Un saludo


SUPONGO

Offline Lephturn

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1200
      • http://lephturn.webhop.net
700y? 800y? 1000y? oooooooh yaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2001, 07:40:00 AM »
Supongo,

Yes, it's not all lag.  Lag is only one of the factors here, but it is a factor.  Despite all the claims, I have yet to see a film from the attackers perspective where any plane gets consistent kills at long ranges.  Even finding one single example of a kill outside of say 700 from the shooter's perspective is challenging.  It does happen... everybody gets lucky, but it doesn't happen often.  The vast majority of all kills in AH still happen at close range in my experience.  Folks seem to selectively remember only the ones where they get killed when they thought they were safe... it's only natural.

Don't forget that we are simply better pilots and better gunners than WWII pilots ever were.  We have far more experience.  We can consistently hit our targets in situations that most WWII pilots never could.  We're better at it, we have more practice.

Buzzbait,

<S>   :)  I have not seen evidence to suggest that accuracy is too high.  All I see is that HTC gave us guns modelled as accurately as they reasonably could.  The results were different than some folks seem to expect, and I've seen all kinds of claims of long range accuracy being too high.  What I have not seen is any evidence that suggests to me that there is something wrong with the modelling.  I'm open to discuss it of course, and I'm willing to admit that I may be wrong.  It's just that every time I personally gathered evidence, what I found seemed right.  I used to think that the long range gunnery was "off" here as well at first.  Then I did some tests, filmed some fights, and tried some things.  The evidence I gathered suggested that my perceptions didn't match what was really happening.  By that I mean even though it felt like I was being killed at long range on a regular basis, filming everything showed that it was pretty damn rare.  Trying to make long range kills myself illustrated to me just how difficult it really is.  Take up a C-Hog and TRY to get long range kills, even set your convergence to 600 yards first.  I think you'll be surprised at the results, I know I was.

BTW, just in case I want to mention this again.  If you guys do any testing, please FILM IT!  I can arrange to get the films posted on the internet for you if needed.  If you do find a problem and can back it up with film as evidence, I am sure HTC would investigate the problem.

[ 08-03-2001: Message edited by: Lephturn ]

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
700y? 800y? 1000y? oooooooh yaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2001, 08:05:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lephturn:
The evidence I gathered suggested that my perceptions didn't match what was really happening.  By that I mean even though it felt like I was being killed at long range on a regular basis, filming everything showed that it was pretty damn rare...

If you do find a problem and can back it up with film as evidence, I am sure HTC would investigate the problem.

[ 08-03-2001: Message edited by: Lephturn ]

Totally agree Leph. Particularly on the long range kills and the famous "one ping kill".

Reminds of of McDonald's slogan almost:

"Over 2 Billion reported, not one filmed!"

 :)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline AKSWulfe

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3812
700y? 800y? 1000y? oooooooh yaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2001, 08:17:00 AM »
Supongo, don't take this the wrong way.. But Lephturn has been a trainer for a long time.

The fact that he knows what he's talking about makes him an excellent trainer. I said, "and that's why you are a trainer Leph" because he proved again that he knows what he's talking about. He's great at what he does and knows what he's talking about.

Just because you read in some book that the pilot's didn't open fire until close range does not mean that because we open fire at longer ranges than their accounts tell that the guns/cannons are modelled incorrectly.

It's not like cannon shells just fall out of hte nose and you have to be right on their six to place them there. They have a velocity, and depending on their velocity, the farther they can go before they fall significantly. That's why some cannon shells drop more substantially than others.

Pilot's in WWII fired both the MGs and cannons at the same time, does that mean we should too? Not at all, they just didn't have the experience we have. We can afford to die over and over to stupid mistakes, they couldn't.

They had to make every shot count, they had to ensure the way they flew guaranteed their lives were not in danger, and most importantly they didn't have nearly the number of hours 'flying' these things as we do.

It's all relative, when I was a newbie in '93 I had to be extremely close to get a shot. Now, after years and years of thousands of kills, I know at what ranges I can hit and at what ranges I can't and at how many Gs I can fire off rounds and how much lead I must pull to hit the target.
-SW

Offline garrido

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 85
700y? 800y? 1000y? oooooooh yaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2001, 08:45:00 AM »
Hello friend's

Well, ok, will create film's and it will be sent them.
 Although it is certain that aqui are many lives and we can be born thousand times also is it that that factor is due to consider in a simulation or to change the simulation aerial combat name for arcade aerial combat. I do not doubt the effectiveness and the understanding of our Lepthurn. friend as I either do not doubt the effectiveness and knowledge of my RAM friend (R4M) and was here, in the forums of AH, vilipendiated, humiliated and separated, and it gave exact data of trustworthy sources, they must consider all the opinions, are to favor or against the LW, USAF, RAF or any other aerial force.

 A greeting friends

SUPONGO


 Bien, ok, creare peliculas y se las mandare.
Si bien es cierto que aqui hay muchas vidas y podemos nacer mil veces tambien lo es que ese factor se debe tener en cuenta en una simulacion o cambiar el nombre de simulacion de combate aereo a arcade.
No dudo de la eficacia y el entendimiento de nuestro amigo Lepthurn. como tampoco dudo de la eficacia y conocimiento de mi amigo RAM (R4M) y el fue aqui, en los foros de AH, vilipendiado, humillado y apartado, y el daba datos exactos de fuentes fidedignas, deben tenerse en cuenta todas las opiniones, esten a favor o en contra de la LW, USAF, RAF o cualquier otra fuerza aerea.

Un saludo amigos

SUPONGO

Offline AKSWulfe

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3812
700y? 800y? 1000y? oooooooh yaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2001, 08:52:00 AM »
Supongo, did you view those two films I posted above?
-SW

Offline StSanta

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2496
700y? 800y? 1000y? oooooooh yaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2001, 10:01:00 AM »
Hm, well, to  be honest, long range shots are far simpler with .50's and Hispanos. 'd expect pilots flying planes with these wapons to have more films of long range shots than those flying planes with inferior guns.

Offline R4M

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 662
700y? 800y? 1000y? oooooooh yaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2001, 10:09:00 AM »
Supongo ,warra a mi no me mentes en este foro si no quieres q se te echen encima como lobos...por ahora incluso parecen gente civilizada y todo. Increible pero cierto...ya veras como cambia ahora, ya.   :).


My take on this matter is well known. in AH certain weapons (ahem, 50 cals and hispanos) feel like neutron accelerators while others are like hand-throwing stones. 2 weeks ago in a H2H I cut off a Tempest's tail with a single hispano flash from my tiffie, from 1.2K aprox, my FE. And I was NOT spraying. I laffed my ar$e off and almost fell outta the chair. The following day, winging with some JG54 people in a H2H I got killed in a similar way. Never got into AH H2H again since then  :)

 One of my last kills in the AH main arena was in a P38, at almost 950 yards. I also got lots of kills in a P47D11, but none of them under 250yards. All those kills were done with short bursts, not s&p firing...

If you say that those kills are realistic, allow me to disagree  :)

I think that the rangefinders in the icons play a huge part in the unrealistic hit chances at long ranges, but there is also a lot to blame to the neutron accelerators wich saw off tails with singe hits. There was a good reason why the WWII pilots used to hold fire until they were at pointblank range, but in AH there must be a REAL good reason for people in hispano-armed birds NOT to open fire under 700 yards.

[ 08-03-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]

Offline Fatty

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3885
      • http://www.fatdrunkbastards.com
700y? 800y? 1000y? oooooooh yaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2001, 10:16:00 AM »
Is that what firing a neutron accelerator feels like?

What is the rate of fire, trajectory, and damage potential of a neutron accelerator like vs a turbolaser?

Could you give a reference for your particle weapon specs please?

Offline AKSWulfe

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3812
700y? 800y? 1000y? oooooooh yaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2001, 10:21:00 AM »
Fatty, maybe he means a hyper-sonic particle accelerator. I find those match the trajectory, velocity and hitting/explosive power of a Hispano turbo-laser.
-SW

Offline batdog

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1533
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com/
700y? 800y? 1000y? oooooooh yaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2001, 10:30:00 AM »
I like my .50's. Its often amusing to see a 109 level for a HO and me sprey them at 1k out. Its even better when I see an engine kill... of course when I go BOOM from a 30mm at 400 or less it aint so much fun but hey it all tastes the same.

xBAT
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline R4M

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 662
700y? 800y? 1000y? oooooooh yaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2001, 10:36:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fatty:
Is that what firing a neutron accelerator feels like?


humm no, in fact I would give up a neutron accelerator in exchange for an Hispano  ;)

Offline Lephturn

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1200
      • http://lephturn.webhop.net
700y? 800y? 1000y? oooooooh yaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2001, 02:30:00 PM »
Well I'm not asking you to believe me Supongo.  I'm saying don't believe me, and don't believe RAM.  Test for yourself.  Look at the evidence.  It it looks wrong, post the films, or have me post them for you.  But don't base your conclusions on "feel" or "memory".  Do some tests and film them.  Then review your evidence carefully, and try to keep in mind the points I've raised about things that effect what we see here in AH.  Then make your own decision.  :)

RAM brought up a good point, in that the laser range finders contribute to the problem.  They contribute in two ways actually, first they let us estimate the distance too accurately, and second they tell us how far the other guy was away on our FE when he shoots us.  It gives us far more information about our shots, and gives us just enough information about the other guy's to mislead us so we can complain about it.  :D  The accurate range information alone is going to allow for longer range shooting.  Combine this factor with the others I mention (we are better pilots and gunners, lag, lack of other random factors) and you have longer range effective gunnery.  That DOES NOT mean that anything is modelled incorrectly, it just means the conditions are different.

Just a question RAM, but how do you know what range is reasonable for Jug pilots to have fired at?  More to the point, how did THEY know?  Right, they didn't ... they just estimated.  Since they didn't have laser range finders, they just got "real close" so they couldn't miss.  Just because they routinely fired a closer distances doesn't mean the guns are modelled wrong, they just had different circumstances.  Since they didn't know what the range was, they just got so close they couldn't miss.  We have more information than they had, we are better pilots and gunners, and we don't have other random factors screwing us up.

Until I see evidence to sugest otherwise, I still think the modelling is spot on in the context of the game.  It also usually "feels right", and seems to match some of the anecdotes I have read.  I'm not just basing my opinion on anecdotes... I've done tests personally when I thought something was weird.  My point is that I've always come to the conclusion that my perceptions were what was wrong, and the game was modeling things properly.  I encourage everyone who sees a problem to go test it, film the results, and discuss them here.  I think just doing that will open a lot of folks' eyes, I know I learned a few things.  :)

Offline garrido

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 85
700y? 800y? 1000y? oooooooh yaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2001, 05:58:00 PM »
RAM capullo, me importa un huevo que se me hechen encima, si tienes razon la tienes, y punto. T'has enterao?
pos eso lo que digan los demas me la suda.

Chao so zorra

Supongo