Author Topic: What it feels like to battle Hartmann  (Read 479 times)

Offline Jekyll

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 89
      • http://www.bigpond.net.au/phoenix
What it feels like to battle Hartmann
« on: April 22, 2001, 05:02:00 AM »
Ok, Ok so this is really an Off-Topic topic, but I found it rather interesting and humorous in a macabre kind of way.

It's by Lawrence Thompson, who in January 1945 was flying a P51D over Romania.  He had the misfortune to meet up with a certain young blonde-haired Luftwaffe Ace.

Who says Germans have no sense of humour?  

"At this time we're both down to stall speed, and he levels out. My airspeed indicator reads less than 90 mph! So we level out. I'm really close now to the Me109, less than twenty five yards! Now if I can get my guns on him.........

At this range, the gunsight is more of nuisance than a help. Next thing, he dumps his flaps fast and I begin to overshoot him! That's not what I want to do, because then he can bear his guns on me. The P-51 has good armor, but not good enough to stop 20mm cannon hits. This Luftwaffe pilot must be one heck of a marksman, I just witnessed him shooting down a P-51 with a single 20mm cannon shot! So I do the same thing, I dump my flaps, and as I start to overshoot him, I pull my nose up, this really slows me down; S-T-A-L-L warning comes on! and I can't see anything ahead of me nor in the rear view mirror. Now I'm sweating everywhere. My eyes are burning because salty sweat keeps blinding me: 'Where is He!?!' I shout to myself. I level out to prevent from stalling. And there he is. Flying on my right side. We are flying side to side, less than twenty feet separates our wingtips. He's smiling and laughing at himself. I notice that he has a red heart painted on his aircraft, just below the cockpit. The nose and spinner are painted black. It's my guess that he's a very experienced ace from the Russian front. His tail has a number painted on it: "200". I wonder: what the "two hundred" means!? Now I began to examine his airplane for any bullet hits, afterall, I estimate that I just fired 1,600 rounds at the hun. I cannot see a single bullet hole in his aircraft! I could swear that I must have gotten at least a dozen hits! I keep inspecting his aircraft for any damage. One time, he even lifts his left wing about 15 degrees, to let me see the underside, still no hits! That's impossible I tell myself. Totally impossible. Then I turn my attention back to the "200" which is painted on the tail rudder. German aces normally paint a marker for each victory on their tail. It dawns on me that quick: TWO HUNDRED KILLS !! We fly side by side for five minutes. Those five minutes take centuries to pass. Less than twenty five feet away from me is a Luftwaffe ace, with over two hundred kills. We had been in a slow gradual dive now, my altitude indicates 8,000 feet. I'm panicking now, even my socks are soaked in sweat. The German pilot points at his tail, obviously meaning the "200" victories, and then very slowly and dramatically makes a knife-cutting motion across his throat, and points at me. He's telling me in sign language that I'm going to be his 201 kill! Panic! I'm breathing so hard, it sounds like a wind tunnel with my mask on. My heart rate must have doubled to 170 beats per minute; I can feel my chest, thump-thump and so. "

How would YOU have felt in this situation?  

------------------
Jekyll
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
Aces High Training Corps

Offline juzz

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 193
      • http://nope.haha.com
What it feels like to battle Hartmann
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2001, 06:27:00 AM »
Story's a fake.  

Offline R4M

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 662
What it feels like to battle Hartmann
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2001, 07:13:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by juzz:
Story's a fake.  


MOst probably. By January, 1945, Hartmann had scored well over 200 kills. Also, that story about flying side to side for 5 minutes is unbeliable.

Lot of inventions in that story, IMO

Offline Fishu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
What it feels like to battle Hartmann
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2001, 07:18:00 AM »
Nice story.. but im missing the end of it  

[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 04-22-2001).]

Offline jihad

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 356
What it feels like to battle Hartmann
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2001, 11:05:00 AM »
 http://members.cruzio.com/~jeffs

The complete text is on -IK-'s WB page.

Offline niklas

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
What it feels like to battle Hartmann
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2001, 11:39:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by R4M:

MOst probably. By January, 1945, Hartmann had scored well over 200 kills. Also, that story about flying side to side for 5 minutes is unbeliable.

Lot of inventions in that story, IMO

Do you think the pilot was able to count all kill markings from the tail of hartmann? There was a marking for 200 kills, but this marking doesn´t represent the current "score" of Hartmann, it just means that the reached 200+ kills.

The pilot said 5minutes, true, but do you think that he was able to judge the time correctly in such a stress situation?? Never heard from reports where people felt time passed a lot slower than in a normal situation??

niklas

Offline R4M

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 662
What it feels like to battle Hartmann
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2001, 12:43:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by niklas:
Do you think the pilot was able to count all kill markings from the tail of hartmann? There was a marking for 200 kills, but this marking doesn´t represent the current "score" of Hartmann, it just means that the reached 200+ kills.

Erich Hartmann got the Diamonds for his Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords on August 25, 1944 for his 301st victory. By January 1945, the number (evidently) was well over 300 kills. In his tail there could not be a 200, but a 300.

Sorry, I say roadkill here. I've read the whole story and its all a complete exageration, if not a lie.


jato757

  • Guest
What it feels like to battle Hartmann
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2001, 01:43:00 PM »
real or not, still a great story, and im shure situations like this did take place.

Offline danish

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 440
What it feels like to battle Hartmann
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2001, 02:02:00 PM »
Have read the story before several times, and have allways wondered.
First and foremost Hartmann himself have never told a similar story - allthough it certanly should be one to remember.

In his "official" biography "Blonde Knight of Germany" (at the moment far away from my books) the incidents at Poelsti where Hartmann got 7 (?) Mustangs are reasonable detailed - and nothing indicates a scenario as the good Lawrence Thompson describes.

Another thing is that this "flaps out, near stall"-thingy is not the way Hartmann fought - or survived.Only when hard pressed would he leave his allmost slow deliberate pattern of killing.

On a psylogical note:
"The German pilot points at his tail, obviously meaning the "200" victories, and then very slowly and dramatically makes a knife-cutting motion across his throat, and points at me. "
This dosnt sound as Hartmann either.Just IMO.

I have never seen a good idea come up that could explain the story, but if we allow for a slight misreading and change the number on the tail to 100 a good deal of aces comes to mind.
All that is left is just to crossreference the whereabouts of these with the date heh..

danish

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
What it feels like to battle Hartmann
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2001, 03:46:00 PM »
Was Hermann Graf with JG52 at this time? He had 109s with red tulip noses and 212 kills total. IRRC he was with Hartmann in May when they were captured by the Americans and turned over to Russia.

Offline ElLobo

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19
What it feels like to battle Hartmann
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2001, 02:58:00 AM »
Then there was the time Her Hartman found himself in the midst of a few ponys and just bailed out to save his skin, I think that was the third or fourth time he was shot down or crashed.

------------------
Aces of America
Fly to Live, Live to fly
Do or Die

Offline illo

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 374
What it feels like to battle Hartmann
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2001, 04:03:00 AM »
 
Quote
Then there was the time Her Hartman found himself in the midst of a few ponys and just bailed out to save his skin, I think that was the third or fourth time he was shot down or crashed.

Smart move. Why to get yourself killed?

Offline danish

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 440
What it feels like to battle Hartmann
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2001, 05:12:00 AM »
Ohh and then there is the Q of the heart below the cockpit.If the story is written post war (and it most likely is), it likely is a blend of memory and post war facts.Happend all the time: just looks at all those long nosed FW's lurking around early -44 <G>.

"How would YOU have felt in this situation? "
Jumped.As Illo says.

Lobo: go spoil another thread.

danish


Offline HABICHT

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 100
      • http://www.jagdgeschwader54.net
What it feels like to battle Hartmann
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2001, 05:45:00 AM »
hartmann ran out of fuel in middle of the ponies. bailing was only way to stay alive.

btw, why weren't 4+ ponies able to kill such
a "bad" plane like the 109 was in us propagnda?

wastel

Offline R4M

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 662
What it feels like to battle Hartmann
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2001, 07:36:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by danish:
Happend all the time: just looks at all those long nosed FW's lurking around early -44 <G>.
danish



Danish, there were long nosed FWs flying over Germany since 1942 (prototypes of the Fw190B, Fw190C,Fw190D, the Ta152 and ta153), so I dont doubt a bit that the reports on "Long nosed FW190s" were for real.

What is REALLY funny is the me209 kill markings on Bob Johnson's P47D  

Me209???? ROFL