Author Topic: War on terrorism ineffective  (Read 1739 times)

Offline Voss

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War on terrorism ineffective
« on: May 19, 2002, 02:30:04 PM »
While, we stage attacks in Afghanistan and gain assistance from Pakistan, Pakistan terrorists have struck at India. India now looks at the U.S. as hypocritical on terrorism. Why? Well, I bet the way we dropped the ball with Arafat has something to do with it.

While, everyone worries about Iraq and Hussein's attempt to develop nukes, Pakistan and India both already have them.

I don't trust the Arab states at all, and I smell a rat. We have gotten so stupid recently. We deny screeners to profile? WTF is up with that? We won't call Arafat a terrorist? Stupidity!

We're getting setup for a big hurt, and all of our self-imposed handicaps are going to bite us on the butt.

Offline ~Caligula~

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War on terrorism ineffective
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2002, 02:57:40 PM »
Wait untill it`s too late.
All you palestinian lovers will be shocked when the bomb You hear about in the news isn`t in Netanya but in Austin or Denver.
Make them belive that You accept their cause,and justify their ways of fighting,because that`s the only way they can fight the oppressors and it will be no time before some amazinhunks here will think that is a working way of getting things trough.
I`m so mad I don`t even wanna type here anymore....3 dead so far after Netanya attack...:mad:

Offline Eaglecz

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« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2002, 04:19:53 PM »
good point Voss

btw why do not use same quesion like in AH
when you run home with mega gang bang on your butt, we all say, that you should ask yourself, what got you to that situation...


What got they (US,UN,ME) into their situation ?
How many people have to die before we will looking for problems and analyze them back in time?

instead of pointing finger on .....

Offline Elfenwolf

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« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2002, 04:37:33 PM »
Bradahold, ritha fely tro samentypo polgirees gramintn somanitd gramoholo sputz. Nadolop nexurio "Plodh! Plodh! Plodh!" exerdife ferchur "Joban! Joban! Joban!" emederiot fracklem? Plachilo, govar didulm b deribul. Honbur morpuid whilpit sodak estular. "Plodh" va doridut frip mog handster "Joban" holg novinor siplolo ximonop. Wabgag frabvue.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2002, 05:55:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eaglecz
good point Voss

btw why do not use same quesion like in AH
when you run home with mega gang bang on your butt, we all say, that you should ask yourself, what got you to that situation...


What got they (US,UN,ME) into their situation ?
How many people have to die before we will looking for problems and analyze them back in time?

instead of pointing finger on .....


When a girl is raped, is the first question you ask her "why did  you get into that situation"?

You are a diddlying idiot :) <- see, I used a smiley...draw your own conclusions from that.

It is always wrong to try to shift blame and guilt from the rapist, or the terrorist, or the murderer, to the rape victim, the innocent civilian or the murder victim.

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2002, 06:12:43 PM »
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It is always wrong to try to shift blame and guilt from the rapist, or the terrorist, or the murderer, to the rape victim, the innocent civilian or the murder victim.


In the two days leading up to this attack, an Arab Israeli woman was shot dead when the car she was travelling in overtook a line of cars, an Arab Israeli man was shot dead after trying to drive his car across a ditch dug to cut off a village where his relatives live, a 15 year old Palestinian child was killed by an Israeli shell that "went astray", and a Samaritan man was shot for refusing to stop when shouted at by Israeli soldiers. He was profoundly deaf and didn't hear them.

Now, are you going to shift blame from the IDF, which shot all these innocent people?

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2002, 06:46:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan

In the two days leading up to this attack, an Arab Israeli woman was shot dead when the car she was travelling in overtook a line of cars, an Arab Israeli man was shot dead after trying to drive his car across a ditch dug to cut off a village where his relatives live, a 15 year old Palestinian child was killed by an Israeli shell that "went astray", and a Samaritan man was shot for refusing to stop when shouted at by Israeli soldiers. He was profoundly deaf and didn't hear them.

Now, are you going to shift blame from the IDF, which shot all these innocent people?


You obviously have problems understanding the concepts of intent, law, criminal and terrorist. The short answer would be, I doubt there is any blame to shift in your examples.  

I also strongly suspect there is more to these "stories" than you seem to indicate. In fact, all your examples seem very thin on details. There are probably alot more factors that you have either left out, or are unaware of. Please do elaborate a bit further...

The Arab Israeli woman shot while her car was overtaking a line of cars. What was the line of cars doing? Was it at a checkpoint? Who was in the car with her? Who shot her? IDF or Settlers? Or Palestinians? Why? Was she in violation of any laws or orders from Israeli security forces? Was it a lawful shooting according to Israeli law?

Arab man shot while trying to drive his car across a ditch. Who shot him? IDF or Settlers? What was the situation like? Was he in violation of any laws or orders from Israeli security forces? Was it a lawful shooting according to Israeli law?

The shell that went astray, sounds like an accident. Any indication that the IDF soldiers had any intent to kill him? Any criminal culpability?

As for the last one...did the IDF soldiers know that he was deaf? Was he in violation of any laws or orders from Israeli security forces?Was it a lawful shooting according to Israeli law?

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2002, 09:48:14 PM »
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The Arab Israeli woman shot while her car was overtaking a line of cars. What was the line of cars doing?

Travelling along the road. In my experience, cars tend to bunch up behind slower moving vehicles, unless on a dual carriageway.

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Was it at a checkpoint?

No.

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Who was in the car with her?

Her mother and her sister. She was 47, so presumably her mother was in her sixties or older, her sister anywhere between 30 and 60.

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Who shot her? IDF or Settlers? Or Palestinians?

The IDF at first said Palestinians had shot her, later admitted it was their own soldiers.

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Why?

You tell me. The IDF shoots about 200 - 300 Palestinian civilians a year.

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Was she in violation of any laws or orders from Israeli security forces?

Not that anyone is aware of. She wasn't a wanted suspect, if that's what you are hinting at.

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Was it a lawful shooting according to Israeli law?

Israeli law doesn't apply in the territories, so who knows. Currently only a tiny percentage of shootings by soldiers are investigated by the IDF, there is no outside investigation.
It probably wasn't legal under Israeli military law, but without an investigation no one will know.

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Arab man shot while trying to drive his car across a ditch. Who shot him? IDF or Settlers? What was the situation like? Was he in violation of any laws or orders from Israeli security forces? Was it a lawful shooting according to Israeli law?

IDF again. What do you think my last setence meant?
"Now, are you going to shift blame from the IDF, which shot all these innocent people?"

He was trying to cross a ditch in his car. He was spotted, and an Israeli patrol fired at his car. They claim to have fired wrning shots first.

Again, Israeli law doesnt apply. Again, probably ilegal under Israeli military law, won't be investigated.

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The shell that went astray, sounds like an accident. Any indication that the IDF soldiers had any intent to kill him? Any criminal culpability?

Lot of accidents around the IDF.

Strangely, they never shoot a settler by accident, their shells never go astray and hit settlements, settlers are never shot for driving too fast, or getting out of their car too quickly at roadblocks.

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As for the last one...did the IDF soldiers know that he was deaf?

No, aparently deaf people are extremely rare in Israel, because deaf people have been shot on several occasions for refusing to obey shouted commands. Not deaf settlers of course.

I think the tactic you've used is usually applied in court with questions like:
How short was your skirt?
Did you have knickers on?
Were you drunk?
How many men have you had sex with?

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It is always wrong to try to shift blame and guilt from the rapist, or the terrorist, or the murderer, to the rape victim, the innocent civilian or the murder victim.

Quote
You obviously have problems understanding the concepts of intent, law, criminal and terrorist. The short answer would be, I doubt there is any blame to shift in your examples.

An innocent civilian is innocent regardless of the laws imposed on him. Jews murdered by the Nazis were murder victims, whatever Nazi law said. Members of the einsatzgruppen were murderers, whatever Nazi law said.

Laws don't change morals.

Israel is occupying the West Bank and Gaza. The IDF is there to enforce that occupation. These people were going about their legitimate business when they were shot by the occupying power. It doesn't matter what the ocupying power's laws say, that's still wrong.

After all, I'm pretty sure a Palestinian court would rule the suicide bombers are carrying out legitimate attacks. That wouldn't be right either.

The IDF is an army of occupation. They use typical tactics of violence and intimidation to enforce that occupation. I don't know if you are old enough to have seen the CBS footage from 1987, of IDF soldiers holding down a Palestinian youth whilst they used rifle buts to smash his arms. That incident followed Rabin's calls to "break the bones" of the demonstrators.

The IDF shoots Arabs even when there is no risk from them. Read the reports from human rights organizations, and even from the US state department. They give a long list of beatings, destruction of property, collective punishment, and shootings. Read the Mitchell report, which shows that a Palestinian is more likely to be shot dead by the IDF if the IDF are not under armed attack than if they are.

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2002, 11:38:03 PM »
Which really means...

"Is Israel worth World War III?"
sand

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2002, 04:06:59 AM »
Israeli military law is also Israeli law. Somehow you seem to forget that.

And I still think that there are more to your stories than you care to admit. For example, I dont think an Israeli soldier decided to just shoot a woman in a random car, "just because" or whatever. IDF soldiers dont just roam the streets in various Palestinian towns killing people for the heck of it, regardless of what the Palestinian propaganda machine is trying to have you believe.


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An innocent civilian is innocent regardless of the laws imposed on him. Jews murdered by the Nazis were murder victims, whatever Nazi law said. Members of the einsatzgruppen were murderers, whatever Nazi law said.

Laws don't change morals.

This is a question that is far more complicated than you would seem to realize. Anyway, it deserves alot more discussion than just your rather cavalierly approach to it. We can go into that one if you want, your call.

As for the footage of IDF soldiers breaking the arms off some Palestinian. I think I saw that one, but I think they were using rocks and not their rifles. Or perhaps we are talking about two different occations.

As for your "analysis" on the "tactic" I apparently use, and how it "is usually applied in court with questions like how short were your skirt etc". Well, let me just say that your legal knowledge or various previous analysis so far has ...eh ...not exactly impressed me that much. In fact, it is painfully obvious that you really have no idea what you are talking about in that area.  So please allow me to take this "analysis" of yours and bunch it together with your "the IDF is an occupation army" or "Israeli law does not apply on IDF soldiers in the west bank" and write it off as yet another failed attempt at legal argumentation fom your side.

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2002, 04:34:26 AM »
Hortlund, why do you start off with lines like this:
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It is always wrong to try to shift blame and guilt from the rapist, or the terrorist, or the murderer, to the rape victim, the innocent civilian or the murder victim.

and then do just that, by shifting  the argument to legal technicalities?

Not happy arguing the moral case for Israel's actions?

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And I still think that there are more to your stories than you care to admit. For example, I dont think an Israeli soldier decided to just shoot a woman in a random car, "just because" or whatever. IDF soldiers dont just roam the streets in various Palestinian towns killing people for the heck of it, regardless of what the Palestinian propaganda machine is trying to have you believe.

No, of course not. No armies ever behave like that.

The Israeli army is composed of conscripts. Some of them are drawn from the extremist settlements, places where Baruch Goldstein is revered as a hero. Some support far right parties that want to expel all Arabs. Many want revenge on the Arabs for suicide bombings.

Put these men in uniform, give them guns, and implement a policy whereby they will not even be investigated for shooting civilians and see what happens.

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regardless of what the Palestinian propaganda machine is trying to have you believe.

I dont actualy read any Palestinian propoganda sites, because they will obviously be biased. I prefer to use Israeli and independant sources, such as the US state dept. etc.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2002, 04:53:05 AM by Nashwan »

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2002, 06:44:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Which really means...

"Is Israel worth World War III?"


It's past that Sandman, if we withdrew all support this minute, the nutbags would still want us dead.

Question is, Is the survial of America worth WW3?
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Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2002, 10:12:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Bradahold, ritha fely tro samentypo polgirees gramintn somanitd gramoholo sputz. Nadolop nexurio "Plodh! Plodh! Plodh!" exerdife ferchur "Joban! Joban! Joban!" emederiot fracklem? Plachilo, govar didulm b deribul. Honbur morpuid whilpit sodak estular. "Plodh" va doridut frip mog handster "Joban" holg novinor siplolo ximonop. Wabgag frabvue.


Well said sir.

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2002, 10:28:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler


It's past that Sandman, if we withdrew all support this minute, the nutbags would still want us dead.

Question is, Is the survial of America worth WW3?


Wow... this post is absolutely dripping with fatalism. :(
sand

Offline Otto

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« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2002, 05:57:51 PM »
We still have 'Nukes'.....  It would be a waste of Taxpayers money not to use them....