Author Topic: Were the Russians planning to invade in 1942?  (Read 1760 times)

Offline julle

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Were the Russians planning to invade in 1942?
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2002, 01:18:16 PM »
One of the earliest--and certainly the most infamous--mass shootings of prisoners of war during World War II did not occur in the heat of battle but was a cold-blooded act of political murder. The victims were Polish officers, soldiers, and civilians captured by the Red Army after it invaded eastern Poland in September 1939. Strictly speaking, even the Polish servicemen were not POWs. The USSR had not declared war, and the Polish commander in chief had ordered his troops not to engage Soviet forces. But there was little the Poles could do. On 28 September, the USSR and Nazi Germany, allied since August, partitioned and then dissolved the Polish state. They then began implementing parallel policies of suppressing all resistance and destroying the Polish elite in their respective areas. The NKVD and the Gestapo coordinated their actions on many issues, including prisoner exchanges. At Brest Litovsk, Soviet and German commanders held a joint victory parade before German forces withdrew westward behind a new demarcation line.

Official records, opened in 1990 when glasnost was still in vogue, show that Stalin had every intention of treating the Poles as political prisoners. Just two days after the invasion began on 17 September, the NKVD created a Directorate of Prisoners of War. 2 It took custody of Polish prisoners from the Army and began organizing a network of reception centers and transfer camps and arranging rail transport to the western USSR. Once there, the Poles were placed in "special" (concentration) camps, where, from October to February, they were subjected to lengthy interrogations and constant political agitation. The camps were at Kozelsk, Starobelsk, and Ostashkov, all three located on the grounds of former Orthodox monasteries converted into prisons. The NKVD dispatched one of its rising stars, Maj. Vassili Zarubin, to Kozelsk, where most of the officers were kept, to conduct interviews. Zarubin presented himself to the Poles as a charming, sympathetic, and cultured Soviet official, which led many prisoners into sharing confidences that would cost them their lives.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2002, 01:22:17 PM by julle »

Offline julle

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Were the Russians planning to invade in 1942?
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2002, 01:24:36 PM »
The considerable logistic effort required to handle the prisoners coincided with the USSR's disastrous 105-day war against Finland. The Finns inflicted 200,000 casualties on the Red Army and destroyed tons of materiel--and much of Russia's military reputation. That war, like the assault on Poland, was a direct result of Stalin's nonaggression pact with Hitler.

The Soviet dictator offered Helsinki "remarkably moderate terms," in the words of British military historian Liddell Hart, taking only territory needed to defend the land, sea, and air approaches to Leningrad. 4 The difference between Stalin's treatment of Finland and Poland underscored his imperial ambitions toward the latter. Moscow and Helsinki even exchanged prisoners once hostilities had ceased. (Stalin, however, dealt harshly with his own soldiers who had been in Finnish captivity. At least 5,000 repatriated troops simply disappeared from an NKVD prison and were presumably executed. 5)

Stalin was anxious to settle with Finland so he could turn his attention to Poland and the Baltic countries, which the Red Army would soon occupy and the NKVD would "pacify" using terror, deportations, and executions. Militarily, the war was over by late February, though a peace agreement was not signed until March. NKVD interrogations were completed about the same time. The Poles were encouraged to believe they would be released, but the interviews were in effect a selection process to determine who would live and who would die. On 5 March 1940, Stalin signed their death warrant--an NKVD order condemning 21,857 prisoners to "the supreme penalty: shooting." They had been condemned as "hardened and uncompromising enemies of Soviet authority."

Offline julle

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Were the Russians planning to invade in 1942?
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2002, 01:29:25 PM »
During April-May 1940, the Polish prisoners were moved from their internment camps and taken to three execution sites. The place most identified with the Soviet atrocity is Katyn Forest, located 12 miles west of Smolensk, Russia. For years historians assumed that the grounds of an NKVD rest and recreation facility were both an execution and burial site for nearly a fifth of the unfortunate Poles who found themselves in Soviet captivity. Post-Cold War revelations, however, suggest that the victims were shot in the basement of the NKVD headquarters in Smolensk and at an abattoir in the same city, although some may have been executed at a site in the forest itself. In any event, the Katyn Forest is--and will probably long remain--the main symbol of the atrocity, even if it was not the actual killing field.



Memorandum on NKVD letterhead from L. Beria to "Comrade Stalin" proposing to execute captured Polish officers, soldiers, and other prisoners by shooting. Stalin's handwritten signature appears on top, followed by signatures of Politburo members K. Voroshilov, V. Molotov, and A. Mikoyan. Signatures in left margin are M. Kalinin and L. Kaganovich, both favoring execution.

Offline julle

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Were the Russians planning to invade in 1942?
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2002, 01:33:24 PM »
The Katyn Forest massacre was a criminal act of historic proportions and enduring political implications. When Nazi occupation forces in April 1943 announced the discovery of several mass graves, propaganda minister Josef Goebbels hoped that international revulsion over the Soviet atrocity would drive a wedge into the Big Three coalition and buy Germany a breathing space, if not a victory, in its war against Russia. (A headline in the May 1943 Newsweek read: "Poles vs. Reds: Allied Unity Put to Test Over Officer Dead.") But Goebbels miscalculated. Despite overwhelming evidence of Soviet responsibility, Moscow blamed the Germans, and for the rest of the war Washington and London officially accepted the Soviet countercharge. When the Polish government-in-exile in London demanded an international inquiry, Stalin used this as a pretext to break relations. The Western allies objected but eventually acquiesced. Soon thereafter, the Soviet dictator assembled a group of Polish Communists that returned to Poland with the Red Army in 1944 and formed the nucleus of the postwar government. Stalin's experience with the Katyn affair may have convinced him that the West, grateful for the Red Army's contribution to the Allied military effort, would find it hard to confront him over Poland after the war.

Professor Stanislaw Swianiewicz was the sole survivor of Katyn. He was waiting to board a bus to the forest area when an NKVD colonel arrived and pulled him out of line. Swianiewicz was an internationally recognized expert on forced labor in Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany, who had been born in Poland when it was still part of the Russian empire, and had studied in Moscow. He ended up in Siberia, and after the war emigrated to the United States, where he taught economics at the University of Notre Dame. At least one CIA analyst remembers the professor from his days in South Bend.

Those who died at Katyn included an admiral, two generals, 24 colonels, 79 lieutenant colonels, 258 majors, 654 captains, 17 naval captains, 3,420 NCOs, seven chaplains, three landowners, a prince, 43 officials, 85 privates, and 131 refugees. Also among the dead were 20 university professors; 300 physicians; several hundred lawyers, engineers, and teachers; and more than 100 writers and journalists as well as about 200 pilots. 7 It was their social status that landed them in front of NKVD execution squads. Most of the victims were reservists who had been mobilized when Germany invaded. In all, the NKVD eliminated almost half the Polish officer corps--part of Stalin's long-range effort to prevent the resurgence of an independent Poland.

Offline Russian

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Were the Russians planning to invade in 1942?
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2002, 01:49:40 PM »
Julle, could you please post second part of that note, (pg62.gif)


That note is incomplete and missing last page. Right now nothing says about killing anything in that note.  

« Last Edit: May 31, 2002, 05:17:40 PM by Russian »

Offline Samm

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Were the Russians planning to invade in 1942?
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2002, 02:16:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by --am--
Estonia, Latvia, Lithuenia voluntary have come in structure USSR.


You mean in the same way that Bulgaria, Hungary and Czechoslovakia voluntarily joined the USSR ?

Offline miko2d

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Were the Russians planning to invade in 1942?
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2002, 02:52:09 PM »
Angus,
 If you really interested in the answer to you question by a real professional - intelligence officer and historian, you should read the books of Victor Suvorov - "Day M", "Ice-Breaker", etc.

 His date is July 6th, 1941 - two weeks later then Hitler's attack.

 miko

Offline julle

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Were the Russians planning to invade in 1942?
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2002, 05:06:23 PM »
Soviet, sorry I donīt understand what is the 2nd part.

I only found this:



Largest of seven mass graves. Five layers of 500 murdered Polish officers buried here by the Soviets.

julle

Offline julle

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Were the Russians planning to invade in 1942?
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2002, 02:38:33 AM »
"Means you to assert, that if in the state the mass murder of the citizens of other states is authorized, the soldiers which killed these citizens do not carry the responsibility for it? --am--"

Hereīs something for you to chew on: My GOOD freinds garantfather was a soldier during the continutation war against russia. It was CHRISTMAS and they had agreed on a ceasefire for that day. That means that NO SHOOTING! SO: the time came and first the russians stood up and waved to the finns. Slowly the finns started to rise up. My friend grandfather stood up too. In a few minits he was SHOT IN THE HEAD by a russian sniper! Of course he was KILLED. After the war this inividual has been tried to caught by the russians cover the incidence by lies and ignorance. :mad:

Remember that the above Polish episode is only a crystal on the tip of the iceberg. Showing how the russians were "NON-AGGRESSIVE". :rolleyes:

NO ONE SAYS THAT THE NAZIīS WERE NOT EVIL, but the world is NOT black īn white you know. ALL sides did the enormities of the war. We should LEARN from that!

julle

Offline --am--

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Were the Russians planning to invade in 1942?
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2002, 05:41:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by julle
"Means you to assert, that if in the state the mass murder of the citizens of other states is authorized, the soldiers which killed these citizens do not carry the responsibility for it? --am--"


You have written about Polish killed much. Now write (if you are objective) about 20 000 killed Russian in the Polish concentration camps, after aggression of Poland in 1920. Then as much to write about concentration camps in Finland former citizens of Finland there died which have not wished in 1940 to live in "free" Finland). Then to write about concentration camps in America for the citizens of the Japanese nationality. Then to write about destiny the Italian soldiers in America (last of them have returned home in 1956). Then to write some words about destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  


USSR did not make anything, that would not make other states.

Offline --am--

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Were the Russians planning to invade in 1942?
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2002, 05:44:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Angus,
 If you really interested in the answer to you question by a real professional - intelligence officer and historian, you should read the books of Victor Suvorov - "Day M", "Ice-Breaker", etc.



This fantastic writer, has written many books, where on each page false. He nothing to understand in tanks, nothing to understand, in strategy, nothing to understand in economy. But very  to love money.

Offline Boroda

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Were the Russians planning to invade in 1942?
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2002, 03:08:56 PM »
Julle, the Katyn mystery is still unsolved.

The document your posted only proves that Soviet government was AGAINST executing Polish officers.

If you'll see the Resolution put on that "order" by Stalin and others - it is written ACROSS the paper. Means - AGAINST. On the left there is a small note: "Kalinin - pro, Kaganovich - pro". That's all.

I know that AM thinks that it was Soviets who shot Polish POWs in Katyn. I still don't think so. Too many fiction around that sad event :(

Remember who and when "found" Katyn mass-graves?...

Miko, Suvorov lies. It's a well known fact. It was many times proven that the only page where he doesn't lie is contents. Anyone considering him as a serious "historian" should go read the sources he "quotes". At least 75% of qoutes are taken out of context, have false dates or are simply a figment of his imagination.

By "liberation" I mean saving ethnic groups sentenced to total destruction by nazis. USSR could save all that 6 million Jews, 500000 Gypsies, umpteen number of Eastern Slavs and Western Europeans.

Crimes of nazism were judged by a Nuremburg International Court. Find me any "proof" of crimes of such scale performed by communists. All you can find will be western/nazi propaganda adopted for elementary school. I don't speak about any International Court decisions.

Again: USSR was right. UK was right. USA was right. Their opponents were not. Fortunately - they mostly found their fate after trials in Nuremburg and Tokyo.

Offline julle

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Were the Russians planning to invade in 1942?
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2002, 03:20:39 PM »
Balkars to Honour NKVD Victims

How a summer's day in 1942 turned the Balkar people into a nation of
outcasts By Yuri Akbashev and Askerby Minasharov in Nalchik (CRS No. 78,
13-Apr-01)

In a bid to rally their ethnic kin in Kabardino-Balkaria, the Balkar
nationalists have found that tales of past injustice are often more
persuasive than promises of a better future.

In this context, the Cherekskaya Tragedy of 1942 serves their purposes well.
And the upcoming anniversary of the NKVD massacre has given the new
torch-bearers of the Balkar independence movement a golden opportunity to
"honour the martyrs".

The truth about the Cherekskaya Tragedy only came to light in the early
1990s when KGB files were opened and post-war cover-ups were unmasked.

According to Balkar historians, the NKVD swooped on the North Caucasus as
units of the 37th Army fell back from their positions around
Rostov-on-the-Don.

Among the retreating troops were around 700 survivors of the shattered 115th
Kabardino-Balkarian Cavalry Division which had been engaged in running
battles with German tanks and motor rifle units.

According to reports sent by the NKVD - the forerunners of the KGB - to
police chief Lavrenty Beria in Moscow, the so-called deserters were largely
ethnic Balkars who took refuge in settlements across the Caucasian
foothills.

Beria promptly dispatched "execution squads" to three Balkar villages --
Sautu, Kyunyum and Cheget-El - where they shot more than 1,500 men, women
and children in the space of three days.

Tani Baisieva, 66, remembers, "I was seven years old at the time. There were
60 of us gathered at my grandmother's house. The Red Army soldiers said they
wanted to hold a village meeting and got everyone out into the street. We
were standing by a wall when the troops opened fire. My mother fell down,
covering me with her thick shawl. Then they left us there to die.

"I remember hearing my mother whispering for a drink of water, then she died
along with my two younger sisters. Meanwhile, the soldiers gorged themselves
on food they had stolen from our homes. I was the only one to survive. When
relatives from a neighbouring village took me home, they found five bullet
wounds in my body."

Another survivor, Mukhadin Gazaev, 76, said, "We ran off to Irtsibashi, in
the mountains and lived there for a week with no food. When I came back, I
found my sister Maru dead with her youngest son in her arms. The other two
boys were also dead -- one had been shot together with his grandmother. We
wrapped their charred remains in kaftans and buried them."

And Khalimat Zhangurazova, 71, hid in a ditch and watched as more than 60
members of her family were gunned down on the third day of the pogrom. They
shot the Balkars in the courtyard, then burned their corpses nearby.

"It was impossible to breathe from the stench of burning bodies," said
Zhangurazova.

After the Soviet Army reoccupied the Caucasus, Stalin was quick to accuse
the Balkars of collaborating with the Nazis and deported them en masse to
Central Asia. Thousands died from cold and hunger as they struggled for
survival on the inhospitable Kazak steppe.

The Balkars were officially rehabilitated in 1957 when they returned to
Kabardino-Balkaria - only to find that many of their traditional territories
had been appropriated by Kabardinian and Russian settlers.

Over the past few years, Balkar leaders have been calling for Moscow to
recognise the Cherekskaya massacre and admit that the commanders of the NKVD
units -- Fedor Nakin, Lieutenant-Colonel Shikin and his adjutant, Captain
Tyazhelov - were guilty of war crimes.

They argue that allegations of Nazi collaboration are "a stain on the honour
of the Balkar people" which later made them outcasts in their own society.

The nationalists say that more than half of the 100,000 Balkars in the
republic consider themselves to be the victims of discrimination. Their main
enclaves are concentrated in the Elbrus and Chereksky regions from where
they hope to build an independent Balkaria - a goal which has eluded them
for nearly a decade.

Yuri Akbashev and Askerby Minasharov are regular IWPR contributors.

Offline Ripsnort

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Were the Russians planning to invade in 1942?
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2002, 03:21:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by --am--


This fantastic writer, has written many books, where on each page false. He nothing to understand in tanks, nothing to understand, in strategy, nothing to understand in economy. But very  to love money.



"Denial is the path of least resistence to acceptance of the truth"

Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson June 2nd, 2002

Offline julle

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« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2002, 03:23:15 PM »
The rapid German advance in the first months of the war forced the NKVD to evacuate several prisons, labor colonies, and camps that would otherwise have fallen into enemy hands.  Between July and December 1941, 210 colonies, 135 prisons, and 27 camps, containing nearly 750,000 prisoners, were transferred to the east.  Summarizing "gulag activity in the Great Patriotic War," the Gulag chief, Ivan Nasedkin, claimed that "on the whole, the evacuation of the camps was quite well organized."  He went on to add, however, that "because of the shortage of transport, most of the prisoners were evacuated on foot, over distances that sometimes exceeded 600 miles."  One can well imagine the condition in which the prisoners arrived at their destinations.  When there was not enough time for a camp to be evacuated, as was often the case in the opening weeks of the war, the prisoners were simply executed.  This was particularly the case in western Ukraine, where at the end of June 1941 the NKVD massacred 10,000 prisoners in Lviv, 1,200 in the prison at Lutsk, 1,500 in Stanislwow, and 500 in Dubno.  When the Germans arrived, they discovered dozens of mass graves in the regions of Lviv, Zhytomyr, and Vynnytsa.




Lviv residents
search for friends and relatives
among those murdered by the NKVD
during the Lviv Pogrom of July 1941