Author Topic: Were the Russians planning to invade in 1942? (Read 1757 times)

julle · « **Reply #45 on:** June 03, 2002, 03:39:17 PM »

http://katyn.codis.ru/fberia.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1791/memorials.html
http://www.victimsofcommunism.org/

Boroda · « **Reply #46 on:** June 03, 2002, 03:41:04 PM »

Rip, Suvorov's books are not a subject of historical science, but of a patological mental desease and Western money. We have some books here who don't leave a single "fact" in Suvorov's books intact. I doubt they will be printed in the West, guess why?

Julle, what are you trying to say? That Soviet police forces were used to execute traitors and state criminals? I's not a secret. Lviv pogrom in July, 1941, performed by NKVD?! Check the map of operation Barbarossa.

Sorry, all you say here is a nazi "history" adopted for elementary school in late-40s, with maaany translation errors noone ever tried to correct.

Samm · « **Reply #47 on:** June 03, 2002, 03:46:41 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Boroda
I doubt they will be printed in the West, guess why?

No, tell us .

Staga · « **Reply #48 on:** June 03, 2002, 03:52:50 PM »

You sure had a boat loads of criminals and traitors over there Boroda. Guess it's good thing NKVD eliminated them

Sieg He.. ermmm... Za Rodina !

Toad · « **Reply #49 on:** June 03, 2002, 03:57:18 PM »

Thanks, Boroda. I needed some more laughs today!

Remembering Katyn

"On April 13, 1990, the Soviet authorities at last admitted responsibility for the massacres at Katyn and elsewhere, although the figure cited in the relevant statement—"around 15,000"—fell short of the real total by more than 6,000.

The admission came in a statement by the Tass news agency, with the personal authority of then Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev. The statement referred to only three of the prison camps involved: Smolensk, Voroshilovgrad, and Kalinin. It claimed that the authorities had knowledge of the killings through "recently discovered documents." "Direct responsibility for the crime" was ascribed to Beria.

The statement ended "The Soviet side, expressing profound regret over the Katyn tragedy, declares that this was one of the gravest crimes of Stalinism."

At a meeting in Moscow that day, Gorbachev presented Polish president General Wojciech Jaruzelski with copies of the NKVD's lists of names of Polish internees in the three camps mentioned.

The Polish government issued a statement declaring that the question of responsibility for the massacre had "weighed particularly painfully" on Polish-Soviet relations and that the "long-awaited" Soviet admission made possible a relationship based on "partnership and true friendship." The statement went on: "Reconciliation can only be built on truth." It is surely fair to add that the Tass statement—although useful for relations between the ailing Soviet Union and its Polish satellite—was true but not the whole truth. Only three of the localities involved were named, and the total given fell short of the true figure."

Once again... yet again..... always again, Boroda. I know this is hard for you.

BUT YOUR OWN PEOPLE ADMIT THEY KILLED THE POLES AT KATYN.

THEY ADMIT IT!

THEY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE NKVD DID IT.

Sorry, sometimes the truth hurts.

julle · « **Reply #50 on:** June 03, 2002, 04:04:36 PM »

Remember that the above Katyn episode is only a crystal on the tip of the iceberg!

CHARTSYSK MASSACRE
( Sept. 18, 1941 )
During the Soviet army retreat in the direction of Yeletsk, the retreating soldiers came upon a small ravine between Chartsysk and Snizhy stations about sixty kilometres from the city of Stalino. The horrible sight that befell their eyes was the dead bodies of many children aged from 14 to 16 years that partly filled the ravine. They were dressed in the black uniform of the F.S.U. Trade and Craft School in Staline. It was discovered that the children were being evacuated from as the German army neared the city. After walking nearly 60 kilometres they became utterly exhausted and had begged for transport. Their guardians promised to send trucks but instead a detachment of Russian political police (NKVD) arrived. Carrying machine-guns, they starting shooting the children in cold blood and throwing the bodies into the ravine. The Soviet soldiers counted the bodies of 370 slain children.

Boroda · « **Reply #51 on:** June 03, 2002, 04:37:00 PM »

Toad, you have a dangerous hobby of quoting Gorbachev and other US employees

AFAIK, the "proof" he have given consisted of documents like Julle showed us. You only have to read it carefully to understand it's a fake.

President Kvasnevsky knows some things better then Gorby, and still asks Russia to admit that USSR is guilty in Katyn' massacre.

Frankly speaking - I don't know who is responsible for that, and I doubt anyone will ever know. I only know the facts. Graves found by nazis and shown as "Soviet atrocities" in 1943. In 1943 Allied inspected the graves and found only bodies shot down from German weapons. 3 members of a nazi "comission" openly stated they were forced to sign a document stating tthe bodies were shot by Russians while they saw all evidence proving that nazis did it. That people were not under any Soviet influence, living in Western occupation zones.

I don't think that "documents" shown by Julle prove anything. They were all analyzed in Russian press and appear completely absurd. The one he showed here states that Stalin and others were against executing Poles. Others are obviously fake because don't comply to Soviet standards...

It's all too complicated. Following the line I explained in the closed thread - If I meet obvious nazi propaganda as an alternative to Soviet POV - I'll choose Soviet side without hesitating. Just to protect my weak mind.

My expaination is that all that things were used to raise hatred between Poles and Russians. It's the only thing I am sure.

Look how this goes again. I state that nazism was evil and had to be defeated at all costs. My opponents draw obvious cold-war propaganda issues and state that it was communism that really was.

Julle, where did you dig that FZU students episode? Did you find the secret Propaganda Ministry archives? If you don't want to look absolutely stupid - stop posting such "sources". I still don't get what you are trying to prove me. War is war, and even if what you say is true (that is not) - it's nothing compared to what nazis planned for us. And please, turn on your mind and read what you post here before hitting "submit" button.

Toad · « **Reply #52 on:** June 03, 2002, 05:03:34 PM »

So Tass and Gorby are lying?

How about this one:

Putin calls Poles

"Russian President-elect Vladimir Putin telephoned President Kwaœniewski mid-week to inform him of the discovery of a mass grave thought to contain the bodies of Poles murdered by Soviet forces during the Second World War.

Putin invited Polish authorities and other interested parties to participate in an investigation into this recent discovery, but no other details (or numbers) were released. The grave was found near Smolensk, close to Katyn, where some 4000 Polish officers lay. Between 15,000 and 21,000 were executed in April and May of 1940, following the Soviet invasion, but most of the bodies have never been recovered.

The Katyn massacre, as the event is known, has long served as a symbol of Soviet crimes against Poland. Prime Minister Buzek told the upper house the same day that: "These were not only Polish officers, Poland's elite, who were buried in the Katyn graves. For many years, Polish sovereignty was buried there as well." President Kwaœniewski's wife, Jolanta, traveled to Russia to take part in commemorative events there."

Not Putin either?

Well, how about your Interior Minister & Putin?

Polish prime minister, relatives dedicate memorial to Stalin's victims

"What happened here should never have happened," Rushailo, the interior minister, said. "I am sure that there will be no more events that could lay a shadow on relations between our two nations."
Moscow persistently blamed the murders on Nazi forces invading the Soviet Union during World War II, and did not officially admit Soviet guilt until 1990. It was the Nazis who found the graves, in 1943.
Poland still hopes that those responsible for the executions could will be punished, and President Vladimir Putin called his Polish counterpart Aleksander Kwasniewski in April to offer help investigating the crime.

Boroda · « **Reply #53 on:** June 03, 2002, 05:28:41 PM »

Toad, I hope they'll find the truth and finaly find the real people who commited that crime. And I am almost sure they will be nazis.

So far the only reliable document is the Burdenko's comission report submitted to Nuremburg court. Everything else is so full of obvious lies

And please don't mix political decisions with what really happened.

I also hope that Polish side will investigate the executions of Soviet POWs in Poland in 1920.

Samm · « **Reply #54 on:** June 03, 2002, 05:32:18 PM »

Boroda please provide us with the titles or authors of some of the books written that discredit Suvorov . I would be interested in reading them . I agree some of his books have a lot of exageration and untruths in them . His book "Spetsnaz" for example is mostly fiction . Some of his other books are about half factual and half fiction, for example "Inside the Aquarium", and "Liberators", but that is to be expected considering the subject matter . I should add that I think "Inside the Soviet Military" is reasonably accurate . I cannot offer an opinion on his latest books about WWII history, I have not read them and I'm really not interested in the subject .

Boroda · « **Reply #55 on:** June 03, 2002, 05:45:51 PM »

A link to an interesting but doubtfull (i have to admit it) book in Russian:

http://lib.ru/MUHIN_YU/katyn.txt

Even after reading this book I can't be sure about who made it. Mukhin has some intersting ideas, but his other books make him look like a bonehead commie

BTW, I find interesting parallels between Katyn and Kosovo...

Re Suvorov.

"Liberator" is a collection of standard army "baikas", processed to shock Westerners. "Aquarium" - interesting reading, but - fiction.

The best book so far "against" him is A. Pomogaibo's "Pseudohistorian Suvorov-Rezun and Mysteries of the World War Two"

http://referats.colibri.ru/book.asp?cod=113856&rp=34&up=1

It's not perfect, but the author keeps up with Suvorov's popular style and makes his book interesting to read. BTW, Suvorov's "pure fiction" books suffer from extremely poor Russian language, this makes me think that his "Icebreaker" series were written by Western professionals.

Toad · « **Reply #56 on:** June 03, 2002, 07:07:45 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, I hope they'll find the truth and finaly find the real people who commited that crime.

The Truth IS known.

Gorbachev ADMITTED it.

It's only a few people that can't accept it.

Russian · « **Reply #57 on:** June 03, 2002, 09:35:38 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by julle

Do you have second part of that document that you posted? Right now its incomplete, it's made out of more then just one page. As right now, nothing in that document say about killing polls.
I'm not intrested in debate, I'd just like to read complete document.

--am-- · « **Reply #58 on:** June 04, 2002, 01:51:00 AM »

Julle the doctor Gebbels your teacher? If you read the textbooks on a history (anyone) instead of nazis propagation, knew, that by first in Lviv have come Ukrainian nazis Stepan Bander. It they suited mass murder in cities, at approval of Germany. Only when Bander has proclaimed independence of Ukraine, germans have lost to him interest and have arrested. However in 1944 him have let out from prison, that he has organized struggle with advanced Red Army

As to Caucasuses, and chechen`s (which you wrongly name "Balkar"), they mass cooperated with nazis, they suited attacks on wax of Red army, on trains, on warehouses. One of gangs was headed by the Chechen public prosecutor Mayrbek Sharipov, other gang was headed by the regional chief NKVD Hasan Israilov. All gangs actively cooperated with nazis, 2/3 divisions " of Brandenburg - 800 " were on Caucasus in these gangs.

By the decision GKO USSR number 5074 from July 31, 1944 the Chechen republic was disbanded, and inhabitants resettlement in Kazakhstan and Kirghizia. In In this document was written, that for resettlement to ensure warm train`s, items of a meal on a road, on everyone a train 1 doctor and 2 medical sisters. For delivery to places of residing 1600 automobiles, 57 000 horse transports, 103 tractors were given.

July 28, 1945 Advice of the National Commissioners USSR has accepted the law on which all people resettlement from Caucasuses are exempted from the agricultural tax, from obligatory deliveries of products to the state, from surtax and other taxes.

julle · « **Reply #59 on:** June 04, 2002, 02:34:23 AM »

http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/gregorovich/