Turning quickly in combat

[Junas]

Hello everyone,
I just started playing this game, roughly, a week ago and I am hooked. It is the first game real flight sim I have ever played. So far I am doing ok. I have a few kills with 10x as many deaths .
I noticed in an engagement that I had last night that the pilots I was fighting were able to turn around much faster then I was. We would start in a near head-on first pass. Then, as I was turning about to go back after him (turning perpendicular to the ground and pulling up till my pilot nearly blacked out), I looked up (5), and he was already turned around and coming straight for me (closing very fast). After he shot me down, I launched again to get back into the fray. It was then I saw 1 green and 1 red in a similar situation. They passed each other and I watched them both as they turned. The red pilot seemed to turn on a dime. Almost as if his plane pivoted on it's engine and it's rear swang around (not exactly, but close). How are they able to do this? I just spent an hour in the off-line sim trying to do it and I can't even get close, no matter how fast or slow I go. I had my flaps up full and a few times I even tried cutting the throttle on my engine to see if that had some effect. Can someone please enlighten me on this? I am new to real flight sims, and I am also not a real-life pilot. The physics, to me, seem unachievable.

[majic]

Couple of things:

What were you flying?  (some planes turn better than others)

Keep in mind that what you saw may have been caused by net lag and the pilot started the turn earlier than you could see.

Couple of tips that might help:

Don't stay horizontal.  Flat turns don't work too well in most situations.

Learn about "E" (energy) and learn about the planes and what they can do so you know what tactics to use based on the plane you are in and the one you are up against.

I'm sure some of the pilots that are better than me can explain the nuts and bolt to you or turn you to a site that has good info.

[SKurj]

Perhaps you were going faster than he.  He was able to turn tighter and mebbe he was at an optimum speed.  He cut the corner.  If you are blacking out i would think you were going abit too fast.

Think the optimum speed to turn most planes in ah i'd think would be around 200ish  Any faster and the pilot's ability to withstand gee is about the only limiting factor.


SKurj

[Junas]

I was flying a Spit IX. (I only fly Spits, Yaks, Zeros, or N1Ks)

I know I was going way more then 300 when I tried to turn. I dunno, maybe it's just something you get better at the more you do. (I am always willing to learn new tricks, if someone is willing to teach.) I can always tell, right away, weither I'm fighting a vet or a new player. Vets kick my arse so hard. About the only time I've personally killed a vet is in a head on pass, but i usually get wounded so badly I can't continue. I been flying offline, flying through hangers (So far only verted, working on trying to do it inverted.), dive bombing bases, and trying to improve. Bases and hangers don't compare to a real pilot. Maybe one day I'll be among the best, but prolly not. Ah well, I can dream.


BTW - Perpendicular means at a 90 degree angle. Not trying to be snooty, just making an observation.

[Redd]

they are probably using a lead-turn on you. Not so much they are turning quicker  - they are just starting the turn earlier

you need to start your turns before the other plane passes you. So don't take the tempting HO shot and set yourself up for position by using a lead turn yourself  - preferably a vertical turn.

The timing you will get used to (depends on relative speeds etc) - but start them when he is say d400-600 in front of you. Also when you do a lead turn you will be a harder target to hit if he is going for the HO. If he goes for the HO you will have a 1 or 2 second timing advantage over him in the first turn which can be enough.

Then approach every turn in the engagment the same way. anticipate where he is going - and make your turn accordingly, and in advance.

Lead turn is probably the most important thing there is to learn in close dogfighting. You'll get to the point where you just do them instinctively.

Hope this helps


Redd

[SKurj]

300 is waaay too fast in a spit +)  in spits you don't want to be going fast.  use that speed to get some altitude

the direction of turn (perpendicular whatever) matters not at all, they are still just a turn.


SKurj

[Roscoroo]

if your going for the head on shot befor the 1st turn  in most of the senario's you will be out of posistion and end up in someones gunsite befor you know what happened .
So u need to change your merge angle and start your turn sooner .
or if trying for the gamble with the head on  you need to extend instead of turn .
alt R <<< the film recorder  is the best thing to use to help with your merges and acm its a great tool .(watch films w/ trail on)

Also spend some seat time in the spit 5  its lighter and turns better then the 9

[Kaz]

do a high yo yo type turn pull up hard and push the stick over u'll get some alt while bleeding off the speed which helps get u around faster. Redd also makes a valid point watch carefully sometimes u can see them coming into u slightly as u merge so he started turning b4 u did he'll finish b4 u also. and of course skurj is right about the speed but this takes practice to do if it turns out that the nme has more energy than u do he may have more options like gaining alt i dunno skurj is an old pro all i can say is practice practice practice. probably the most important factor in winning any fight is to keep your SA up watch what he's doing while u turn on the merge.

[BenDover]

throttle control is also another factor

[majic]

When I say flat turn, I mean exactly how you described your turn.  The arc of your turn was parallel to the ground.


Another suggestion:  Record some of your flights (alt + r) and look back at them (using the film viewer) to see what kind of maneuvers are being used to clean your clock.

The spit IX is a fantastic plane but it is a combination of speed and turning.  I use the A6M quite a bit.  Its the best turner in the game but it has severe limitations:  Top speed is poor, and when you do get speed it handles like a brick.  But once you get the feel for it, it can be quite a weapon.  Keep in mind it does take a while to learn these things so try not to get too frustrated.  I've been here for more than a year and still can't compete with the likes of Fester.  Like I said before one of the most imprtant things to learn is the capabilities of all the aircraft so you know how to handle them when encountered.  Good Luck!

[Eagler]

practice & experience, just stick with it

fly all the planes so you can see how they differ

[Furious]

If you are above or below your planes "corner speed", it is sometimes advisable to add a vertical component to your turn.

In the case when you are too fast a high yo-yo or chandel (sp.) will bleed your speed down to corner velocity while still retaining overall E.


F.

[Junas]

*Makes a few mental notes then starts searching for a description on some of these manuvers*

Thank you for all your advise. I am learning more every day and have improved alot since the day I began. So far it is still very fun and dieing only bothers me now if I haven't gotta at least 1 kill that day .

And majic, I didn't know what a flat turn was but now I do... I apologize for mis-reading you.


*goes back to learning how to die less quickly*

[majic]

Quite alright, Junas.  Who knows, I may be wrong on the terminology, but what's important is the theory behind it.  Once again, best of luck!

BTW- I found an old bookmark with lots of good info on the subject:

HERE

Ripsnort is one of the good guys here at AH.

[akak]

Originally posted by Junas
Hello everyone,
I just started playing this game, roughly, a week ago and I am hooked. It is the first game real flight sim I have ever played. So far I am doing ok. I have a few kills with 10x as many deaths .
I noticed in an engagement that I had last night that the pilots I was fighting were able to turn around much faster then I was. We would start in a near head-on first pass. Then, as I was turning about to go back after him (turning perpendicular to the ground and pulling up till my pilot nearly blacked out), I looked up (5), and he was already turned around and coming straight for me (closing very fast). After he shot me down, I launched again to get back into the fray. It was then I saw 1 green and 1 red in a similar situation. They passed each other and I watched them both as they turned. The red pilot seemed to turn on a dime. Almost as if his plane pivoted on it's engine and it's rear swang around (not exactly, but close). How are they able to do this? I just spent an hour in the off-line sim trying to do it and I can't even get close, no matter how fast or slow I go. I had my flaps up full and a few times I even tried cutting the throttle on my engine to see if that had some effect. Can someone please enlighten me on this? I am new to real flight sims, and I am also not a real-life pilot. The physics, to me, seem unachievable.

The best thing you can do it go to some of the player/squaron training sites and read about some BFM (Basic Flight Maneuvers) and ACM (Air Combat Maneuvers.  This is probably the easiest way for you to start out without having to wade through a zillion answers to your post.

The site that will probably be the most benefit would be xHAMMERx's, NetAces site.  After you've read all the stuff there, it's time to move up a step and check out some of these maneuvers on film.  That's where AKNimitz's site,  Virtual Training Academy comes in handy.  On his site, you'll find numerous plane specific films dealing with ACM for that particular aircraft.  With a little bit of studying, practice and a whole lot of dying, you'll be out turning planes yourself.


Ack-Ack