D9 invincivility / eficiency in MA

[MANDOBLE]

Following Kieran comments in a more on-topic thread.
Yesterday, A21 was being sieged over'n over by cons from A22. Me and two squad mates decided to take off from A6 in 190A8 (30mm) and make our way towards A22 while recovering air control over A21. We were clearing the way towards 22 and once there we set up a hard deck of 15k and start capping the base killing every plane trying to get out the zone. Then arrived a >20k enemy 190, suposedly an "invincible" D9. Our mandatory command was just to ignore it and keep negating that field to the enemy. The enemy 190 was trying very fast passes recovering his alt after each one. Obviously, none of his attacks had any success and he was unnable to protect his mates. Several minutes later, a rook nikki entered the zone and the enemy 190 decided to slow down and keep lower to have any chance to hit any of us. Almost inmediatelly was HOed and disintegrated by the Nikki ... The result were 12 enemies shotdown (including the "invincible" one), our nikki shot down by field ack and one of our A8 with engine killed by a single long range ping of the ack.

The enemy pilot used just book tactics, zoom&boom, keeping fast, keeping hi, trying to be untouchable, but his eficiency and effectiveness was just NULL. With the actual radar/range icons system, pure B&Z tactics are almost useless.

If instead of a hi 190 the enemy had been a hi SpitIX, the results would had been very different.

[AKSWulfe]

Invincibility and efficiency in any plane is entirely dependent on the pilot.

Case in point, first tour the D9 was out I had a 25/3 k/d ratio and in a single sortie shot down 9 aircraft within 5 minutes.

So if you are going to argue the D9 can not be both untouchable and kill as fast as a SpitIX, well there will always be people like me or Kieran to offer counter-points.

Of course, I suppose the cannons are still broke on the D9 too......
-SW

[MANDOBLE]

In fact I'm talking not just about D9 and SpitIX, but about pure B&Z planes vs mixture or pure T&B ones. The most important key of B&Z is the surprise and in our MA surprise is an accident. If Z&B planes dont want to be just ignored by the enemy, they need to slowdown, go lower and dogfight the enemy to find a good firing solution while risking your last generation propeller fighter, unless you want to invert 3 B&Z planes to kill a single T&B one. In this last case you'll get the kill, but eficiency will be almost NULL again.

Each time I decided to be efficient with my D9, I enter in close fights where my speed advantage is no more a key factor. IMO, faster = less chances to hit even a CV. If you suddenly get into defensive and you want to flee away, then your primary performance key will be acceleration, not top speed. If you had acceleration enough to get separation (vertically or horizontally), then top speed will start to be a factor to keep and even increase the separation.

About D9 guns, IMO, they are just as they always have been.

[Kieran]

Man-

You are currently 206/29 k/d in the 190D-9.
You are currently 60/7 k/d against the Spit IX.

You have over 400 kills this tour.
You are ranked 7th in fighters.
You fly mostly LW.

I forget, why did you want to perk the Spit IX?

Edit: Odd, one page has you at 309, the other 407.

[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: Kieran ]

[Kieran]

More fat to chew on:

The Spit IX has 14,721 kills, 15,242 deaths.
It has killed the 190D-9 a grand total of 266 times.

The 190D-9 has 4,994 kills, 3,196 deaths.
It has killed the Spit IX 413 times.

Yes, the Spit has an enormous amount of kills, but it also has an enormous amount of deaths. Spits dive into furballs, twisty-turndy and die. 190's bust through furballs and live.

You can't wash it any other way, the 190D-9 is both more efficient and more invincible than the Spit IX.

[Am0n]

Every newbie flies the spitIX it would seem, or the p51 so those numbers really dont prove much.

Surviving a conflict should be much easier in a a9 though. I dont fly it but i know its zoom and e retention are much better.

**EDIT**
I would have to argue he didnt use text book BNZ tactics, he was simply diving then finding a target while he was comming in, which is not text book IMO.

[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]

[Kieran]

I see. Two 190A8's were attacking a field, presumably vultching it, a Nikki comes along, and a lone high D-9 gets killed by the Nikki, thereby proving the Spit IX needs to be perked.

[Rude]

The enemy pilot used just book tactics, zoom&boom, keeping fast, keeping hi, trying to be untouchable, but his eficiency and effectiveness was just NULL. With the actual radar/range icons system, pure B&Z tactics are almost useless.

 

B&Z tactics within the enviroment which you described are not almost useless. One plane of any type against superior numbers can yield similar results. From what you described, the D9 pilot did not know what he was doing.

Our squad yields high kills using the methods which you described above. The D9 is even more lethal than the Pony for such engagements. You need to possess the gunnery skills as well as utilizing B&Z tactics to have success. If the pilot cannot aquire the shot, how do you expect a level of success in any ride, especially a D9?

I always enjoyed much more success in the Dora than I ever did in a Mustang. I just prefer killing LW iron and driving American steel.

I disagree with your example and your statement. Don't care to argue, I simply disagree.

 

[hazed-]

all id like to know is what does more invincible mean?

it either IS or it ISNT right?  

[Eaglecz]

mandoble mandoble .....

result could be exactly same if that lame whitch cant BaZ were in spit.... if some cant aim, then doesnt matter if he fly D9 or  IX.....

if you are way higher then enmy and you are alone then you have no chance to kill if they working together.
why ?
because when you dive on 1, he is diveing as well and rest of enmy are still climbing... no way to make a kill if you are alone and lower enmy are expirienced and working together.
so this is not reason to flame spit IX  

if it were spit IX im sure that 1 of them will slow him down, and rest of your friends will gang bang him. Because i didnt see any spit IX keeping BaZ... they will lose patient soon or later. Thats my guess  

[Kieran]

Good point, Hazed, but within the context of the argument it makes sense.  

[Kieran]

Ordinarily, AmOn, you'd be right about the numbers WRT to newbies. The problem is Man has presented a case where he contends that basically any newbie can up in a Spit IX and rack up the kills. The total k/d ratio therefore serves to refute that argument. In fact, almost twice as many Spit IX's fell to D-9 guns as did D-9's that fell to Spit IX's.

[Sky Viper]

MANDOBLE,
I'm not sure I understand what you were trying to say in your original post.

It sounds to me like that 190 Driver didn't know what he was doing. Or maybe he had a bad connection that hurt his gunnery.

You let me get in that situation with a decent connection and I'll spoil your attacks.

Invincibility vs. efficiency?
The D9 isn't exactly invincible. A good Pony or Spit IX driver can be quite deadly against even a great Dora Driver.
It's all about SA and E managment.
If your opponent is better, then you're SOL.

It doesn't matter what plane you talk about, if you don't know how to match your aircraft's status to your attacker's posture, then you will die.
If you are aware and know how to counter, then you will live longer and get more kills. This can make you appear invincible, but you're really just beeing efficient.
That is all that Rude does in that blasted Pony. He know's it's E capabilities and maintains them. Put him in another plane and he kinda stinks  .  Until he flies it for a couple days...then look out!   (couldn't resist the chance to poke at Rude      )

Oh well, I guess I used up my 2 cents.

Viper

[Kieran]

Sky-

The background for this goes something like this; a few days ago, Man and I discussed (in a perk thread) the need to unperk the Ta, but prior to that discussion Man had suggested the Spit IX needed to be perked in the MA. The two thoughts juxtaposed as they were seemed absurd, and we have been discussing this on and off since.

He contends that a TnB plane has all the cards, I contend the BnZ plane does.

His argument revolves around kills per time. He contends that, in his perception, it is much easier to be successful in a Spit IX than a 190D-9. I contend that only within a specific environment is the Spit IX successful, and if he keeps the D-9 out of that environment there is nothing the Spit can do- hence the invincibility of the D-9. The Spit on the other hand must wait for the D-9 to screw up or run low on gas, otherwise he will eventually fall to the D-9 guns. The Spit cannot run from most engagements, and once below the D-9 is in serious trouble. The D-9 can virtually run away at any time, so long as he doesn't get himself too low on E to begin with.

Making sense?

[MANDOBLE]

Neg Kieran, we were not vulching, just maintaining 15k and attacking any enemy trying to get out of his field ack. The rook nikki arrived at low alt, almost lower than us and after a lot of unsuccessful attacks of the higher 190. We were not trying to get alt advantage over than 190, we were simply ingnoring it and easily evading it when in his dives. He knows that if he want to deffend his lowers mates his only chance was to slow down and fight and he did that at the time our nikki was near the base just to be HOed by a quick reversal or the nikki. A higher SpitIX, probably, would had much more success in the defense of his lower mates.
Basically, what I mean is that if D9 want to be untouchable, it will be, but will be as untouchable as ineficient. If you want to be eficient with a D9, then you'll be very very touchable. In my case, I need a very good position and a range of 250 yards of less to be able to put a solid burst in the enemy. With hispanos, a single lucky 700 yards ping is a sure critical damage, spray a bit, pray a bit and work done.
A last point, this is my perception that D9 has much worse control at hi speeds than anyother 190 version, as well as slower roll rate. I'm rarely able to follow a diving spit, not due trim problems but due very violent vibrations while keeping similar speed than the Spit in a long dive.

60/7 vs SpitIX? Then I want it perked cause I'm bored of killing it  

Seriously, we actually have almost 1 spit of every 4 fighters (counting only fighter deaths). The reason of that overusage is not just that spit is easy to fly for newbies. Zeke, Hurri, C202 and 109F are also extremely easy to fly (all of them marginally used). The main reason is that Spit is a deadly plane, a very efficient one for our kind of arena, IMO, much more efficient than D9 will be the monster that historically was while spits IX and V will be just mediocre planes.