Author Topic: Social Justice  (Read 1202 times)

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2002, 04:50:08 PM »
Poor downtrodden white folks.:rolleyes:

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2002, 04:57:57 PM »
Poor downtrodden white folks.

Your're such a diddlying racist MT, even if you are a white guy as you say, you show such contempt at whites.  

Pretty sad I think.

Offline Elfenwolf

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« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2002, 05:07:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by majic
"I defy any of you to post a link to a GOVERNMENT SUPPORTED program that denys access to benefits based solely on race."


Try this one.

Or this one.

Not hard to find.


Those are both privately awarded scholarships majic.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2002, 05:08:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Poor downtrodden white folks.

Your're such a diddlying racist MT, even if you are a white guy as you say, you show such contempt at whites.  

Pretty sad I think.


LOL.

If you weren't exhibiting such a high degree of idiocy I would be offended.

Go look up "Racist" and get back to me.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2002, 05:11:39 PM »
Here's a quick test:

How many of us here who are white (I am) have ever been negatively affected by an affirmaticve action program, racial profiling by law enforcement or racism in the work place?

I can honestly say that I have never experienced any of those things.

Every black man that I know has had negative experiences with law enforcement and/or racism in the work place, through no fault of their own.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline lord dolf vader

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« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2002, 05:18:01 PM »
man effenwolf  if you grew up on welfare how the hell can you figgure you earned every penny you ever had ?


sorry man you dont sound like poo folks, you sound like a middle class white guy roadkilling for effect.

Offline wsnpr

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« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2002, 05:18:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target


Agreed on the burden thing, but "start a new race"? That's just silly. The race started 200+ years ago. It's too bad it doesn't start over for each new generation.
When everyone is provided the same opportunities it doesn't necessarily mean the race is even. Some of us have some catching up to do. When the "catching up" is done, then we will truly have equal opportunity.

BINGO!  

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2002, 05:33:59 PM »
Just out of curiosity, how do you decide whether the "race" is fair or not? To me the race is fair right now, because everyone is playing under the same rules (laws). Well, not really actually, because some people are given an unfair advantage over others (quotations, affirmative action), but that's not very PC of me to say.

Apparently some people disagree, and claim that the situation right now is deeply unfair. but I just dont understand what they base this on. Take the piano-example, sure that race would be unfair, but then again, what you are doing is looking back 200 years in time and comparing the situation then with the situation now. In that case, the race will never be fair because we cannot change history.

If you want to add individual persons predjudices into the equation the race will not ever be fair either, because people will always have predjudices, that comes with the territory of being human. And it is extremely hard to legislate over peoples opinions.

So I must admit that I dont really get it, exactly what is it you people want? Should all white people drop out of school and quit their jobs? Would that make the race fair?

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2002, 05:41:20 PM »
I was affected by racism about one year ago.  Just could not take a particular college class due to a proffesor who hated whites.   And he was white too, go figure.    

MT  Im sure you fit in any definition of racism you hold, as it surely includes the words "white people".

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2002, 05:46:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
a proffesor who hated whites.


LOL, man, he cant have an easy life...

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2002, 06:01:31 PM »
Affirmative action plays a big part in this argument.  While I cannot think of a government program off the top of my head that practices reverse racial discrimination in hiring, lending, or what-have-you, I would like to offer these observations from my most recent American Government textbook (United States Government:  Democracy in Action.  Glenco/McGraw Hill publishers, 1998.)

In the early 1960s, the federal government began to require employers, labor unions, and universities to adopt affirmative action programs. Affirmative action means that employers and other institutions must take positive steps to remedy the effects of past discrimination against minorities and women.

The Supreme Court first ruled on affirmative action in Regents of the University of California V. Bakke, (1978).  Allan Bakke claimed to have been refused admission to the Univsity of California medical school because he was white.  The medical school had set up a quota system that reserved 16 places out of 100 each year for minorities.  Minority students with lower test scores than Bakke were admitted to fill the quota.  Bakke sued, claiming he was a victim of reverse discrimination.

Upholding the basic idea of affirmative action by a 5-4 decision, the Court ruled that the university could consider race along with other characteristics when admitting students.  The Court, however, went on to explain that a strict quota system based on race was unconstitutional and in violation of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.  The Court ordered the university to admit Bakke to its medical school.

The Supreme Court has since considered many other affirmative action cases to decide whether it is proper to deny members of the majority fair treatment in order to make up for the unequal treatment of minorities in the past.  Its record leaves the issue clouded because the Court has struck down as many affirmative action plans as it has upheld.

In 1987 the Supreme Court favored affirmative action in a dispute involving equal protection for women.  In the case of Johnson v. Transportation Agency, Santa Clara County, Calif. (1987), the Court upheld a voluntary affirmative action plan the transportation department had adopted.  The plan's goal was to move women into high-ranking positions.  In this case Diane Joyce and Paul Johnson had been competing for the job of road dispatcher.  Johnson scored two points higher on the qualifying interview.  Because of the county's affirmative action plan, however, Diane Joyce got the promotion.  Johnson went to court claiming the plan violated Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

By a vote of 5 to 3, the Court ruled against Johnson.  The Court held that so long as it was carefully used, affirmative action was an appropriate remedy for past discrimination.

Could affirmative action be used in a case that did not involve a remedy for past discrimination? In 1990 the Court answered yes by upholding a Federal Communications Commission policy of favoring women and minorities when it awards radio and television broadcast licenses.  The Court agreed with the intent of the policy--to increase the number of broadcast stations owned by women and minorities.

The Court appears to be sending mixed messages about affirmative action.  One, it can be used to reverse the effects of past discrimination.  Two, it cannot be used in a strict quota system based on race.  Three, it can be used in cases that do not involve a remedy for past discrimination.  With the government talking out of both sides of its mouth, it's no wonder that the people on both sides of this argument, cannot seem to see the other side's point of view.


Regards, Shuckins

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #56 on: June 14, 2002, 06:04:00 PM »
karnak whos to say that it because of their skin color is why they were "mistreated"

Suppose a black man is just a handsomehunk and someone just doesnt like him in particular. How do seperate that from racism?

The fact is we have to take their word for it.

Some people are ugly

some are dumb

some are generally unliked

Theres a whole host of things that can cause someone not to like you.

None of umm I ever feel guilty for. I wont just take someones word for it. If that was the case the every girl my ugly cousin asked out must really have been a lesbian.

How many people in your life have you run into and have had a negative experience with? How many of those do you think are because of race? How do you know?

I agree with gruenherz

Quote
Poor downtrodden white folks.

Your're such a diddlying racist MT, even if you are a white guy as you say, you show such contempt at whites.

Pretty sad I think.


everywhere he looks theres nazi revisionists.

look at his 1st post in this thread.

he didnt even play the game and already feels guilty

:rolleyes:

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2002, 06:23:16 PM »
Affirmative action plays a big part in this argument.  While I cannot think of a government program off the top of my head that practices reverse racial discrimination in hiring, lending, or what-have-you, I would like to offer these observations from my most recent American Government textbook (United States Government:  Democracy in Action.  Glenco/McGraw Hill publishers, 1998.)

In the early 1960s, the federal government began to require employers, labor unions, and universities to adopt affirmative action programs. Affirmative action means that employers and other institutions must take positive steps to remedy the effects of past discrimination against minorities and women.

The Supreme Court first ruled on affirmative action in Regents of the University of California V. Bakke, (1978).  Allan Bakke claimed to have been refused admission to the Univsity of California medical school because he was white.  The medical school had set up a quota system that reserved 16 places out of 100 each year for minorities.  Minority students with lower test scores than Bakke were admitted to fill the quota.  Bakke sued, claiming he was a victim of reverse discrimination.

Upholding the basic idea of affirmative action by a 5-4 decision, the Court ruled that the university could consider race along with other characteristics when admitting students.  The Court, however, went on to explain that a strict quota system based on race was unconstitutional and in violation of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.  The Court ordered the university to admit Bakke to its medical school.

The Supreme Court has since considered many other affirmative action cases to decide whether it is proper to deny members of the majority fair treatment in order to make up for the unequal treatment of minorities in the past.  Its record leaves the issue clouded because the Court has struck down as many affirmative action plans as it has upheld.

 In 1987 the Supreme Court favored affirmative action in a dispute involving equal protection for women.  In the case of Johnson v. Transportation Agency, Santa Clara County, Calif. (1987), the Court upheld a voluntary affirmative action plan the transportation department had adopted.  The plan's goal was to move women into high-ranking positions.  In this case Diane Joyce and Paul Johnson had been competing for the job of road dispatcher.  Johnson scored two points higher on the qualifying interview.  Because of the county's affirmative action plan, however, Diane Joyce got the promotion.  Johnson wento to court claiming the plan violated Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

By a vote of 6 to 3, the Court ruled against Johnson.  The Court held that so long as it was carefully used, affirmative action was an appropriate remedy for past discrimination.

Could affirmative action be used in a case that did not involve a remedy for past discrimination? In 1990 the Court answered yes by upholding a Federal Communications Commission policy of favoring women and minorities when it awards radio and television broadcast licenses.  The Court agreed with the intend of the policy--to increase the number of broadcast stations owned by women and minorities.



It appears that the Court is sending mixed messages about affirmative action.  First, affirmative action can be used to remedy the effects of past discrimination.  Second, affirmative action cannot be used when it is based on a strict quota system based on race.  TThird, affirmative action may used in a case that does not involve a remedy for past discrimination.  With the Court talking out of both sides of its mouth on this issue, it's no wonder that the people on both sides of this argument cannot seem to the other side's point of view.



Regards, Shuckins

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2002, 06:25:02 PM »
Nice post Shuckins.

I remember the Bakke case very well. I was extremely upset with the ACLU at the time, because they didn't assist Bakke. I felt they were not remaining true to their principles.

Affirmative action that assists in increasing the number of minority owned businesses is probably the most useful. Once these businesses are in place the "glass ceiling" tends to disappear.




Grun, You are the most insulting person on this board. Why is that? For every instance of discrimination perpetrated against a white man, there are many many more that occur against a black man. Poor Grun couldn't take a class. My neighbors kid was shot and killed for smoking a joint in an empty building. A guy at my job was arrested because they were looking for "The black guys" that worked here. He was released later, had to walk the 5 miles back to his car, and lost pay for his absence. I fixed that issue (the pay), but that almost never happens to those of us with the good fortune to be Caucasian.



« Last Edit: June 14, 2002, 06:28:03 PM by midnight Target »

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2002, 06:27:14 PM »
Oops,  sorry about that guys.  Didn't think the original post went through.  Corrected a mistake in the first and sent it a second time.

Embarassed,
Shuckins