sort it out

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Boroda
Glasses, I strongly recommend you to think before you post some other roadkill here.

Let me give you an example. Goebbels stated 250,000 civilians dead in Dresden. After the War Allied data reduced it to 40,000. Whom will you believe?

Waiting for Toad to come here and accuse Russians of the Dresden bombing.

Read this Boroda, you might learn a thing or two.

Dresden

Couple of points:
1. The attack on Dresden was a direct result of the demand from the Soviet Union to disrupt German west -> east troop movement.

2. No one will ever know how many died in Dresden that night, because no one will ever know how many people were inside the city when the first bombers arrived.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Hortlund

Couple of points:
1. The attack on Dresden was a direct result of the demand from the Soviet Union to disrupt German west -> east troop movement.

What a crap. Hortlund, you said it even before Toad appeared here.

I want documents. Otherwise I'll state that there was only one reason for demolition of Dresden: not to let Soviets take the city intact.

You are an interesting person, Hortlund. You switch sides in a discussion immediately when there appears an opportunity to bash evil Asian bolshevik hordes, also known as Soviets.

I agree that noone will ever know the exact number of victims, but if I'll have to choose from Allied and nazi data - I'll choose Allied side.

Anton, ty kuda propal? Ne sobiraeshsya v gosti k nam?

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Boroda


What a crap. Hortlund, you said it even before Toad appeared here.

I want documents. Otherwise I'll state that there was only one reason for demolition of Dresden: not to let Soviets take the city intact.

You are an interesting person, Hortlund. You switch sides in a discussion immediately when there appears an opportunity to bash evil Asian bolshevik hordes, also known as Soviets.

I agree that noone will ever know the exact number of victims, but if I'll have to choose from Allied and nazi data - I'll choose Allied side.

Anton, ty kuda propal? Ne sobiraeshsya v gosti k nam?

From the Yalta transcripts:
Soviet General Antonov
"Our wishes are:
a. To speed up the advance of the Allied troops on the Western Front, for which the present situation is very favorable: (1) To defeat the Germans on the Eastern Front. (2) To defeat the German groupings which have advanced into the Ardennes. (3) The weakening of the German forces in the West in connection with the shifting of their reserves to the East (It is desirable to begin the advance during the first half of February).
b. By air action on communications hinder the enemy from carrying out the shifting of his troops to the East from the Western Front, from Norway, and from Italy (In particular, to paralyze the junctions of Berlin and Leipzig).
c. Not permit the enemy to remove his forces from Italy."


On German casualties at Dresden.
After the war, the German government discovered that a number varying from 1,000,000 to 4,500,000 (depending on what sources you use) German civilians were unaccounted for. That is German civilians that went MIA in the last year of the war. No one knows the fate of these civilians. Now, do you think it might be possible that some of these civilians might have been in Dresden that night?

As for the part in russian, I am sorry, but I do not understand russian.

[Boroda]

Breaking railway communications in Soviet way is bombing of "node" stations, destroying rails and structures.

BTW, one of the classic problems solved by US Navy Opertional Research group was bombing the railway stations. It was published in a Morse & Kimbell book in late-40s.

No tell me where the hell should i look at that transcript to find the request to bomb the city that was supposed to be in Soviet occupation zone down to ashes?!

All I can say - cold war propaganda it is.

Sorry, the Russian part was adressed to Red Ant.

Hehe, I typed several paragraphs about the "int-l court" problem, but now I don't feel like posting it here... Re-read it and found it too offencive for both sides here.

[Nashwan]

Now, do you think it might be possible that some of these civilians might have been in Dresden that night?

Yes, some of them were. However, if you read the Dresden thread again, you'll see that one of the men responsible for housing them made an estimate of the numbers. Without rereading it myself, iirc he said the numbers of refugees wasn't that high, with no mass refugee camps etc set up.

There's also estimates from the clean up authorities on the spot, based on the numbers of bodies recovered, and the fact that it was extremely rare for bodies to be destroyed with no trace.

The men who were there and responsible for the clear up don't seem to believe the stories of tens of thousands of bodies disappearing into thin air.

Well respected authors and researchers seem to agree on a figure of 25 - 40,000. Neo Nazis seem to agree on a figure of 120 - 250,000.

[Hortlund]

I disagree with your observation(?) that "well respected authors and researchers seem to agree on a figure of 25 - 40,000. Neo Nazis seem to agree on a figure of 120 - 250,000." If that is the level you want to keep this debate on, then you will have to debate alone. I am sick and tired of insinuations and accusations of me being a revisionist or worse. Suppose I am of the belief that the real number is in the 80-135 000 range, now since you set the ground rules with your "neo nazis seems to agree on 120 -above" that puts me in the suspect category...no? Guilt by accusation. Argue around the facts, not who came up with what numbers and why.

Anyway, just one observation. At Dresden, the combination of firebombs, explosives and meteorological conditions created something that had never been seen before, nor has it been seen anywhere else (with the possible exeption of some japanese raid, I dont know too much about those) ..at Dresden, on that first night, there was a firestorm. As I said to midnight in the other Dresden thread, that makes any comparrison with any other city bombing pointless. What happened at Dresden was unique, and to my knowledge it has only happened there.

Now nashwan, if you want to argue over this, we can, and I think it would make an interesting discussion, buit I will not stand being called revisionist or neo nazi, nor have it implied again. Your call.

[Udie]

Originally posted by Hortlund
I disagree with your observation(?) that "well respected authors and researchers seem to agree on a figure of 25 - 40,000. Neo Nazis seem to agree on a figure of 120 - 250,000." If that is the level you want to keep this debate on, then you will have to debate alone. I am sick and tired of insinuations and accusations of me being a revisionist or worse. Suppose I am of the belief that the real number is in the 80-135 000 range, now since you set the ground rules with your "neo nazis seems to agree on 120 -above" that puts me in the suspect category...no? Guilt by accusation. Argue around the facts, not who came up with what numbers and why.

Anyway, just one observation. At Dresden, the combination of firebombs, explosives and meteorological conditions created something that had never been seen before, nor has it been seen anywhere else (with the possible exeption of some japanese raid, I dont know too much about those) ..at Dresden, on that first night, there was a firestorm. As I said to midnight in the other Dresden thread, that makes any comparrison with any other city bombing pointless. What happened at Dresden was unique, and to my knowledge it has only happened there.

Now nashwan, if you want to argue over this, we can, and I think it would make an interesting discussion, buit I will not stand being called revisionist or neo nazi, nor have it implied again. Your call.

 I think the fire bombing of Tokyo and other japanese cities caused fire storms too.  I've read accounts that it was so hot that people's clothes started bursting into flames and that rubber on shoes melted and what not, tornados of fire.... Must have been horifying to live through something like that.

[midnight Target]

Most of the latest German post-war estimates are that about 25,000 persons were killed and about 30,000 were wounded, virtually all of these being casualties from the RAF incendiary attack of 13/14

From This Site

HISTORICAL ANALYSIS OF THE 14-15 FEBRUARY 1945
BOMBINGS OF DRESDEN


Prepared by:
USAF Historical Division
Research Studies Institute
Air University

Hello again Steve.

[Rooster]

Pretty horrific casualty totals no matter which ones you believe.
The only ones who know for sure are the Dead.

[Hortlund]

So Midnight...pop quiz...do you think I have read that analysis before or not?

Some people believe that the key to knowledge is to get information from many sources and compare them against eachother...

[Nashwan]

Hortlund, I wasn't trying to imply you're a Nazi, neo or otherwise.

I was trying to show that of the people who've studied the attacks, in far greater detail than you or I, the majority seem to agree on the lower figure. Neo Nazis, who have an obvious agenda, claim the much higher figures.

That doesn't mean everyone claiming the higher figures is a neo nazi.  It just means you should look into who is saying what. I haven't actually seen you post any support for the higher figures. If that's because you can't find that support, except on sites you find dubious, that should tell you something.

Anyway, just one observation. At Dresden, the combination of firebombs, explosives and meteorological conditions created something that had never been seen before, nor has it been seen anywhere else (with the possible exeption of some japanese raid, I dont know too much about those) ..at Dresden, on that first night, there was a firestorm. As I said to midnight in the other Dresden thread, that makes any comparrison with any other city bombing pointless. What happened at Dresden was unique, and to my knowledge it has only happened there.

Hamburg suffered at least one firestorm, as did Kaassel and several other German cities.

Now nashwan, if you want to argue over this, we can, and I think it would make an interesting discussion, buit I will not stand being called revisionist or neo nazi, nor have it implied again. Your call.

I could use your own logic and call you a Nazi. You described me as a "terrorist supporter", because I pointed out things Israel has done that cause the Palestinians to turn to terrorism, and crimes commited by the Israelis.

Using that logic, your posts pointing out the injustices of Versailles, and pointing out crimes commited by allied troops, make you a Nazi supporter. I don't believe your logic is justified, so I don't consider you a Nazi.

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Hortlund
So Midnight...pop quiz...do you think I have read that analysis before or not?

Some people believe that the key to knowledge is to get information from many sources and compare them against eachother...

I agree 100%. Helps you determine the difference between an objective site, and one that isn't.

This is the former.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Nashwan

Hamburg suffered at least one firestorm, as did Kaassel and several other German cities.

No, there is a difference. At Hamburg, the bombings created several large fires that merged into one big wall of fire moving across the city, same with Kassel, although it was in smaller scale.

At Dresden it was different, a "firestorm" was created. Basically all the incediaries created an intensly heated "core-fire". This fire was so hot and so large that it created its own meteorological system around it. Air flowed into this core with hurricane strength. Basically anyone or anything caught outside was sucked into the flames where the intense heat obliterated any remains. This "core" fire basically stayed in one place, getting air and fuel from the winds rushing into it.

You cannot compare Dresden to any other bomb attack in Germany, beacuse that firestorm never happened anyplace else.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by midnight Target


I agree 100%. Helps you determine the difference between an objective site, and one that isn't.

This is the former.

Actually Im not sure whether I should laugh or cry.

ehrm..

Exactly how do you reach the conclusion that the USAF Historical Division should be considered an objective site, when the question we are arguing about is whether the destruction of Dresden was a crime or not?

Let me rephrase the question like this: Did the USAF take part in the raid against Dresden? Did the USAF recieve critique for its part in the Dresden raid afterwords?

You want to take the USAF historical division analysis as some kind of pillar of objective truth in this question, I think that is like letting a crime suspect handle the crimescene investigation.

[midnight Target]

Well go ahead and cry. But if the "suspect" provides the court with the type of objective documented evidence that is found on that site I will accept it. I guess some foxes can be trusted to guard the hen house.

Maybe you could suggest a better source?