Author Topic: Another point for the no "God" crowd (Read 2380 times)

Sandman · « **Reply #120 on:** July 19, 2002, 11:36:41 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kieran
You suggest vouchers solve the problem because parents could simply switch schools if they were unhappy.

I say (aside from the fact school hopping is very bad on students) the parents merely carry their problems with them when they go.

It's what I did with my son. I was unhappy with the education that he was receiving at public school, so I switched to a private school. It seems to have done the trick.

I can also see your point, Kieran. If it becomes habitual and the kid is hopping from school to school every year or so, one would have to question the quality of education. Going from one system to another is a bad thing.

We're currently debating whether or not to put my son in public school for high school. That's our window for a change. As we see it, whatever we decide will be the route we take for the next four years.

midnight Target · « **Reply #121 on:** July 19, 2002, 11:42:12 AM »

Do you really think the Government is going to give you money to educate your kids, without having any control over what or how it is taught? Not likely.

Kieran is dead on on this one. Vouchers will just make public schools out of private schools.

Sandman · « **Reply #122 on:** July 19, 2002, 11:47:25 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by midnight Target
Do you really think the Government is going to give you money to educate your kids, without having any control over what or how it is taught? Not likely.

Kieran is dead on on this one. Vouchers will just make public schools out of private schools.

No argument from me.

lazs2 · « **Reply #123 on:** July 19, 2002, 01:00:50 PM »

kieran... catholic schools turn kids away... they have no trouble with "getting used to the money" not every entity is as wasteful and unaccountable as public schools or government in general.... right now... we are goiing over corporations books with a fine tooth comb to see if CEO's may be doing shiffty toejam with the books while govenment agencies books are so bad that most agencies are incapable of being audited due to their books not being complete enough. The marketplace will eliminate those schools that even get close to the waste that is public schooling with its 67% admistrative staff. You simply cannot do any worse than a government run school. You most certainly can do much better. private schools are doing a whole lot better with a whole lot less right now and that is a proven fact... Soime kids will be unteachable that is also a fact. Why waste time on em? more importantly.... why waste other chioldrens time and other parents money on em?

midnight target.... no one is asking the government to give us it's money to educate our children. What is being asked is that we be given OUR own money back (or a lot of it) to buy our own schooling.
lazs

Eagler · « **Reply #124 on:** July 19, 2002, 01:13:10 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
kieran... catholic schools turn kids away... they have no trouble with "getting used to the money" not every entity is as wasteful and unaccountable as public schools or government in general.... right now... we are goiing over corporations books with a fine tooth comb to see if CEO's may be doing shiffty toejam with the books while govenment agencies books are so bad that most agencies are incapable of being audited due to their books not being complete enough. The marketplace will eliminate those schools that even get close to the waste that is public schooling with its 67% admistrative staff. You simply cannot do any worse than a government run school. You most certainly can do much better. private schools are doing a whole lot better with a whole lot less right now and that is a proven fact... Soime kids will be unteachable that is also a fact. Why waste time on em? more importantly.... why waste other chioldrens time and other parents money on em?

midnight target.... no one is asking the government to give us it's money to educate our children. What is being asked is that we be given OUR own money back (or a lot of it) to buy our own schooling.
lazs

this is getting real scary, I agree with 100% of lazs post again!

Yep, and wait til they are through with private corps, with new rules and regs - anyone think it'll be for the better or just another avenue of revenue in the way of contributions for our fat arse politicians..

midnight Target · « **Reply #125 on:** July 19, 2002, 02:41:07 PM »

Yea, I'm expecting it to start raining frogs any time now. Me and Kieran, Eagler and Laz, Dogs & Cats LIVING TOGETHER ...MASS HYSTERIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kieran · « **Reply #126 on:** July 19, 2002, 07:22:14 PM »

Lazs-

You don't seem to understand how the system works. In order for a public school to receive money, it must meet the criterion set forth by both the state and national government. Among the criteria is certain curriculum, a certain number of hours in every subject every week, and a certain length of school day. Students must go to school a set number of days a year. After school programs have to be offered, the school has to fall within predicted ranges on state standardized testing, and a myriad of other items I could mention. In the end, the state has more to do with how a school is run than the community itself.

Now, a community can run a school any way it wishes, to a point; all that happens is they receive no state money if they don't comply. Guess how many times that happens.

Private corporations are in business to make money. If we have learned anything about corporate greed in the last few weeks, it's that where there is money to be made there will be dishonesty. Isn't it surprising to see the number of corporations that can't make an accurate annual report? Do you realize schools have to make annual reports, too? I believe there would be a very good opportunity for unscrupulous schools to capitalize, but that is just my opinion.

I do know for certain that once the private schools commit themselves to going for vouchers, they will most certainly have to "court" the parents to get them. As has been stated before, that in itself is a problem. Add to that the fact any voucher money will have to go to an accredited school, and you wind right back where you started- the state calling the shots. It's a change alright, but it won't last. Vouchers are not the educational panacea they are made out to be.

ra · « **Reply #127 on:** July 19, 2002, 07:38:11 PM »

Gonna jump in without having read ANY of the posts except for the 1st one:

Either get the federal government out of the schools(which won't happen) or get your kid(s) out of federal schools (which is not practical for most). You'll never win the anti-God fight, court precedents have already been set. Once Mother Government started taking over schools from local governments, the die was cast. Our national education system is worse than it has been in 100 years, and still getting worse. A 12th grade education today is the equivalent of a 9th grade education 50 years ago. In the past 20 or 30 years schools have been transformed into leftist 'citizen' building institutions.

In a way the education system reflects the modern American political outlook: turn to your betters in Washington for collective solutions to all our problems. Our betters in Washington don't like competition from God.

ra

Shuckins · « **Reply #128 on:** July 19, 2002, 11:15:52 PM »

Ra,

If our public school systems are in such bad shape, how can it be that the United States maintains a lead over almost every nation in the world in technological innovation and science?

Other nations' students may do better than our own K-12, but statistics suggest that our students tend to catch up at the college level. Free enterprise undoubtedly also plays a part in motivating our college students to excel.

Modern students have more distractions that hinder learning than at any time in the past. Nevertheless, they evidently manage to overcome these handicaps.

Regards, Shuckins

Eagler · « **Reply #129 on:** July 20, 2002, 07:16:11 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Shuckins
Ra,

If our public school systems are in such bad shape, how can it be that the United States maintains a lead over almost every nation in the world in technological innovation and science?

Other nations' students may do better than our own K-12, but statistics suggest that our students tend to catch up at the college level. Free enterprise undoubtedly also plays a part in motivating our college students to excel.

Modern students have more distractions that hinder learning than at any time in the past. Nevertheless, they evidently manage to overcome these handicaps.

Regards, Shuckins

But the "majority" of the kids do not go to college so we are left with a bunch of 9th graders trying to run the show ....

1st lazs then ra, if I agree with Orel next, I'll know for certain the end is near

lazs2 · « **Reply #130 on:** July 20, 2002, 09:43:06 AM »

kieran... I most certainly do know how it works.. Standardized testing would of course be part of a voucher system. I have no problem with that. The fact that more and more "curriculum", "programs" and other trash is added every year is proof that public schools need competion. The programs are added because they can be and public schools are and easy target. sitting ducks. Private schools are operating right now and doing fine with better results than public schools and they can do it with any student better than public schools. that has been proven over and over.

There would be no need to change anything in the private sector... in fact... vouchers would be good for public schools since the buracracies would have to loosen their stranglehold or the public schools would die a deserved death. Once they died somthing better would rise from the ashes.

voucher money would simply go to the parent who would then choose a school. Nothing would change... the "but they would then have to teach ebonics and aura management just like we do" is tripe.... It wouldn't happen.. it doesn't now. It is just a scare tactic and misinformation and defeatism mostly propogated by a very powerful teachers union who's sole purpose is to suck as much tax money up as they can by making people feel scared and guilty.

Public schools and teachers unions have a vested interest in turning out poor students.... it gives em an excuse to ask for more money.... private schools have a vested interest in tuning out good students... it gives em money.
lazs

Kieran · « **Reply #131 on:** July 20, 2002, 09:53:39 AM »

Lazs-

No, you don't get it. The state tells the schools what the required curriculum is. If the school is to receive state money, it must offer and require certain classes, period. Any other curriculum offered is not mandatory in any way. This gives the student (consumer) more choice, but doesn't restrict them. The state sets how many hours are required for a degree, what has to be part of the degree, and what amount of time has to be spent in those classes.

If the state tells a public school it must teach ebonics, you'd better be certain a voucher school would have to, too. Same goes for any other state program.

There is your conundrum, Lazs. Private schools are better because they CAN tell the state to get lost, and this is possible because they don't depend on state money. The minute this changes, the bloom goes off the rose. So, private schools are better, but most people can't afford them. Making them affordable will make them like public schools.

midnight Target · « **Reply #132 on:** July 20, 2002, 10:09:43 AM »

Just to offer a little historical perspective:

New York legislature passes the Maclay Bill, which bars all religious instruction from public schools and denies any state money to denominational schools. This decision spreads to most other states and becomes official policy.

in 1842

Not quite the "new idea" some are suggesting.

lazs2 · « **Reply #133 on:** July 20, 2002, 10:16:56 AM »

kieran... we both agree that public schools are bad and will just get worse so long as they are run by the government. Slowing the decline is no longer an option... overhauling the present teacher union and government controlled disaster is impossible.

I will admit tho....For a voucher system to work.. the money can not be "state money" it has to be in the form of a refund or voucher directly given to the parent. The parent may then spend the money any way he wishes so long as it is at an accredited school. It is in the best interest of the teachers union to foster the idea that our tax money is somehow "state funds". every parent (in one way or another) pays enough taxes that go to public schools right now that they could be refunded to cover the cost of private schools. The lottery even could be shared on a per student basis regardless of school choice. Sales taxes used for school would be shared on a per student basis not a per school basis. as would the myriad of other hidden taxes that go to our wasteful and bloated joke of an education system.

certainly, some "do gooder" programs would be ushered in by voters wanting to "save the children" as things got rolling. programs such as lunch programs but....

vouchers would be a much needed fresh start. they would not only stop the downward slide but put everyone up at the top of the hill again. Sure.... do gooders could screw up the voucher sytem but it would take em 30-40 or more years to get it in as bad a shape as what we have now.... heck.... maybe people would get used to quality and never allow things to get the way they are now ever again.

lazs

lazs2 · « **Reply #134 on:** July 20, 2002, 10:27:50 AM »

I guess to simplify.... The "state" has no problem right now with someone sending their child to a private school so long as they meet academic and health/building codes etc.

if we can seperate the myth of vouchers being "state" money then the whole thing becomes quite simple. Why would the state require more after vouchers than they do now? are they being negligent of their duties to private school children right now by not forcing ebonics or removing religion from private schools?? Of course not.

No... the myth of the state ruining private schools till they are just as bad as public schools if vouchers are passed is just a scare tactic and.... defeatism fostered by (in teachers and "states" cases) self interest.
lazs