40+ Killed at Airshow

[BGBMAW]

yes thwey do fly over the fans..they do at reno air races..

and it sur looked llike the pilots..well i only see 1 ejects ..but parachute dosesnt open toillafter he hits gorund...Golly-gee as afellow pilot..i hate seeing that sht..

God ..help there families and friends....

Love BiGB
xoxoxo

[fdiron]

WTF are you supposed to do?

Anyone here remember the brave Mig-29 pilot who actually pointed his plane straight down after one of his engines flamed out?  He ejected at about 75 feet and lived to tell the tale. His plane smashed into the ground and no one was killed at the airshow. Thats the way your supposed to do it.

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by fdiron


Anyone here remember the brave Mig-29 pilot who actually pointed his plane straight down after one of his engines flamed out?  He ejected at about 75 feet and lived to tell the tale. His plane smashed into the ground and no one was killed at the airshow. Thats the way your supposed to do it.

From what I could tell, aircraft control  was already lost before ejection

 Tronsky

[Animal]

Originally posted by fdiron


Anyone here remember the brave Mig-29 pilot who actually pointed his plane straight down after one of his engines flamed out?  He ejected at about 75 feet and lived to tell the tale. His plane smashed into the ground and no one was killed at the airshow. Thats the way your supposed to do it.

Good for him, he still had control.

In this case, the pilot had lost all control of the aircraft.
Have you flown a plane? Think of it as when you fall into a flat spin in a flight sim. Now, imagine that at 100 feet off the ground.

When you lose control, you move your joystick/yoke, rudder, etc around and it makes little difference. Now, explain to me how you expect the crew to pull a trick out of their tulips in five seconds.

[BUG_EAF322]

Now, explain to me how you expect the crew to pull a trick out of their tulips in five seconds.

By having a buffer of a 1000ft or more

[AKDejaVu]

The Thunderbirds and the Blue Angels both use a ghost runway to line up all stunts.  This usually is a runway a few hundred feet away from the main runway (on the opposite side of the crowd).  All acrobatic stunts are done to that reference to avoid aiming the planes at the crowd during riskey maneuvers.  Basically... they'd not be coming out of a loop and facing the crowd.

I recall the crash at Ramstein too... the plane veered after the collision slightly.  That footage was simply horrible.

AKDejaVu

[fdiron]

I just re-watched the video.  The plane didnt seem totally out of control as it came in and clipped its wing.  It definately wasnt in a flat spin.  If the pilots would have ejected while the plane was on a vertical trajectory instead of trying to save the plane (and risking peoples lives), then about 67 people would be alive today.
I would say that the SU27 was on the 'verge of control' rather than out of control.  I think the pilots could have dove into the ground instead of the debris-and-flaming-gas crash landing that they performed.

[Gman]

Anyone have a count on how many Mig29s and SU27's have been lost in airshows?   It seems to me that this occurs virtually every year or two, and I know for a fact that one Mig pilot has survived 3 ejections, 2 of them at airshows.



A friend I went to high school with, Cliff De Jong, lost his father in a crash with the Canadian Snowbirds.  I grew up on the air base where they are based, and his father rode in a Tutor Snowbird Jet at an airshow in the 1970's when he felt he couldn't safely eject without the plane hitting the crowd.  I'll look up the story, I've seen it on the net before.  Too bad these SU27 pilots had so little altitude when they realized they were in trouble.

[Dowding]

I would say that the SU27 was on the 'verge of control' rather than out of control. I think the pilots could have dove into the ground instead of the debris-and-flaming-gas crash landing that they performed.

On what do you base this on? Are you a aviation crash investigator specialising in Soviet aircraft?

Face it, you've got absolutely no idea what was happening to that plane or how much control the pilot had over it.

[Replicant]

It was Frecce Tricolo at Ramstein airbase in 1988 that had one of the worst accidents I've ever seen (on film!).  One plane literally cartwheeled into the crowd.  It was from this experience that the UK airshow scene dramatically changed and now prevent many manouvres taking place in the name of pilot and crowd safety.

I really cannot comment on what procedures are given in the Ukraine for flight practice before the airshow to make sure that their display is entirely safe.  I must confess that it did seem to be a very dangerous and perhaps reckless manouvre to attempt at an airshow - don't they have a minimum altitude cut off?

Over the years there have been numerous MiG29 & Su27 accidents which must mean something.  I believe it's far too much of a coincidence.  I can understand the MiG29 having more accidents because it's not even fly-by-wire.  At the Royal International Air Tattoo (RIAT) at RAF Cottesmore in 2001 there was a safety breach by at German MiG29.  RIAT were saying at how the CAA had never had to order a plane to land at a RIAT display but they spoke too soon.  The MiG29 dived down and was close to nose-diving before it managed to pull up.  It was swiftly ordered to land for diviating from it's pre-planned routine.

Unfortunately this kind of accident will only make airshows even more stricter and no doubt the anti-airdisplay lobby will be rubbing their hands.  What I would like to know is what sort of practice and safety margins were incorporated into the display before the event took place.  Remember that these are experienced pilots, but flying a plane at its limits and at low level means that things can go wrong, including pilot error.  We will await the official report.

[Animal]

Originally posted by fdiron
I just re-watched the video.  The plane didnt seem totally out of control as it came in and clipped its wing.  It definately wasnt in a flat spin.  If the pilots would have ejected while the plane was on a vertical trajectory instead of trying to save the plane (and risking peoples lives), then about 67 people would be alive today.
I would say that the SU27 was on the 'verge of control' rather than out of control.  I think the pilots could have dove into the ground instead of the debris-and-flaming-gas crash landing that they performed.

Momentum.
Even if you still have control, it doesnt make a difference if you are a few feet from the ground in a heavy fighter.
It was impossible to recover miraculously so close to the ground.

The more I watch the video, the more I think I would have also pulled the handle. Either that, or add up to the casualties and die with relative "honor" (idiotic).

[Toad]

"Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity of neglect"  

Including carelessness in crowd placement at airshows.

What is 500 or 1000 or even 2000 feet to an out of control aircraft doing 500 knots? 500 Knots per hour equals 843.905 Feet per second. How big does the "buffer" need to be again?

People want to be "up close to the action". Accidents do happen. The solo in Frecce Tricolore at Ramstein hit two other aircraft on his pass and the solo's wreckage went into the crowd.

There are risks awaiting us everyday, around every corner, on every street, on every highway.

You want the crowd to be safe? Put them a mile or two from show center.  Oh... wait... no one will come.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Animal



Momentum.

What?  He couldn't just stick out his leg and drag his heel?  

[moose]

Watch Snefens movie link, and tie that in to the engine failure scenario

Pilot loses power in the middle of a turn away from the crowd, tries to dive to regain energy, and snaprolls into the trees trying to pull up. rest is history

Thats my speculation

[Daff]

Toad, it looked to me like they had crowds on both sides of the display area.

Daff