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Author Topic: 40+ Killed at Airshow  (Read 1213 times)

Offline Toad

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40+ Killed at Airshow
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2002, 09:15:21 AM »
That's what I mean Daff.

If you are going to put them up close to show center.. one side, both sides, whatever.. there's always risk.
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Offline Daff

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40+ Killed at Airshow
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2002, 10:42:32 AM »
Well, with the crowds only on one side, the pilot can direct the energy of the maneuvers to the other side.
I know that here in the UK, they have to show their display to the organizer first for those exact reasons and I think (not sure on this), that they also have to have an 'escape' plan for every single manuever should it go wrong.

Daff
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2002, 12:07:19 PM »
Yes, I've been involved in a few airshows and attended the pilot briefings.

I know how "the plan" goes. The problem is if something TRULY goes wrong "the plan" may suddenly be worthless.

As far as all always directing the energy vector away from the crowd.... well, "always" is a mighty big word.

Just about every show I've ever been in or attended had an aircraft energy vector pointing at or very close to the crowd one or more times during an act.

"Bomb-burst" maneuvers spring to mind, with four aircraft coming in low, going vertical near show center  and breaking out into individual loops at the apex only to rejoin at show center again.

There's parts of that maneuver that direct energy at the crowd.

The Blues used to be famous for having the four-ship attract your attention out front while a solo sneaked in behind the crowd on the deck and roared in with his hair on fire right over the assembled multitude. It was great. Don't know if they do it anymore though. What if he had an elevator pitch down malfunction as he came up on the crowd? Not impossible.

So... "always" is a mighty big word.

Accidents happen. There isn't ever going to be a "guarantee" at an airshow.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Boroda

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40+ Killed at Airshow
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2002, 12:40:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Daff
The Ukrainian aviation authority does not have the same airshow safety regulations as we have in the west.
In the west, you can't direct any energy towards the crowd.

Daff


First. I am half-Ukrainian...

Second. Ukraine is probably the next country to join NATO 5-10 years later...
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Offline Boroda

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40+ Killed at Airshow
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2002, 01:16:38 PM »
Thinking about it again...

Pilots were probably ejected by an automatic system... K-36 ejection seat can save the crew from ground level of from 20m upside-down...

I wonder... Will they take a gun and make an act of officer's honour?...

It's not like I think they are to blame, no. It's just a... Don't know how to call it...  "Tradition" is a wrong word.

Ukrainians already arrested Ukrainian VVS commander, 14th IAK commander and all his staff (shtab), Army chief of staff already fired too...

Last year is really not lucky for Ukrainian military. That Tu-154 with 60 Jews shot down, then - this tragedy...

It's hard for me to say this, but I have to call it "amateur armed forces".
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Offline Animal

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40+ Killed at Airshow
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2002, 03:42:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda

It's hard for me to say this, but I have to call it "amateur armed forces".



I'm beginning to think that too.
Amateurish in their deadly mistakes, and in the quick way they deal justice after those mistakes happen.

What happened to investigation and trial?
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Offline Moose1

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40+ Killed at Airshow
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2002, 06:10:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by moose
Watch Snefens movie link, and tie that in to the engine failure scenario

Pilot loses power in the middle of a turn away from the crowd, tries to dive to regain energy, and snaprolls into the trees trying to pull up. rest is history

Thats my speculation


I watched video from CNN.com that had no voiceover--the engine sound did seem to drop right as the plane snapped over, but maybe that was due to the orientation of the plane?

Sure did look like an accelerated stall, though.  Pilot pulls too hard, inside wing stalls, it's game over?

Horrible tragedy :(
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Offline moose

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40+ Killed at Airshow
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2002, 06:51:17 PM »
I'd like to hear what eagl has to say about the scenario above

Is that feasible? I've seen and had my AH planes do the exact same thing before at low speeds but those are prop planes and im not sure if i'm not seeing something

though the basic fact is that there was a loss of lift over the wings that plane isnt gonna fly
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Offline SFRT - Frenchy

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40+ Killed at Airshow
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2002, 04:33:15 AM »
The plane way in astall for sure. The guy was in a bank when he hit the ground. In Aces High, when you are pulling too low from a loop, are you guys staying in bank?

Hell no! You guys go wings level to maximize your lift. The fact that he was still in a bank makes me think that he was trying to avoid hitting the ground facing the crowd. Alas when the wingtip hit, the planed tumbled toward the crowd.
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Offline Eagler

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40+ Killed at Airshow
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2002, 06:33:40 AM »
I see the problem...

fdiron and BUG_EAF322 were not the pilots as if they were they'd performed a miracle and sacrifice themselves and saved the innocent bystanders :rolleyes:

some of you "critics", turn my stomach :(

prayers to the families of those killed, wounded & crippled for life
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Offline BUG_EAF322

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40+ Killed at Airshow
« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2002, 07:48:26 AM »
I hopeur stomach turns good than
never said i wanna be the pilot

but their safety measures sucked imho
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Offline miko2d

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40+ Killed at Airshow
« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2002, 11:38:00 AM »
It might be impossible for a westerner to understand but what Boroda said is ingrained in russian/ukrainian people's culture regarding aviation.

 Whether the pilot was in control or not, whether he could do anything or just attempt in vain, he should have stayed with the ship that was likely to hit civillians.
 I sure hope that was an automatic eject. Nevertheless the pilot will be expected to do the honorable thing and suicide - afer all it was his action/mistake that killed those people.

 miko
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Offline Glasses

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40+ Killed at Airshow
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2002, 10:29:13 PM »
A wise man once said:

"Shit happens, then you die."
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Offline BGBMAW

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40+ Killed at Airshow
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2002, 02:13:27 PM »
OMG,,,thats is BS....commit suicide??!!

Ho wabout he helps train other pilots on what no tto do...IF IT WAS his FAULT....!!

What if it was Mech failure???

ThaT IS A HORRIBLE ATTITUDE AND A LOT OF GOOD PEOPLE DIED CAUSE OF THAT thinking...

oops sorry for the caps....anyways...Why would you want to cause more sorrow???

His family , friends..and fellow pilots.....

I understand that is the way of eastern bloks...but there is no FREAKN reason to continue that "tradition"...that is really a unproductive tactic..and for you to say he should kill him self.....that is wackkk..

Milk//How do you know it was his fault???

Love BiGB
xoxo
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Offline Boroda

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40+ Killed at Airshow
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2002, 07:01:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BGBMAW
OMG,,,thats is BS....commit suicide??!!

Ho wabout he helps train other pilots on what no tto do...IF IT WAS his FAULT....!!

What if it was Mech failure???

ThaT IS A HORRIBLE ATTITUDE AND A LOT OF GOOD PEOPLE DIED CAUSE OF THAT thinking...

oops sorry for the caps....anyways...Why would you want to cause more sorrow???

His family , friends..and fellow pilots.....

I understand that is the way of eastern bloks...but there is no FREAKN reason to continue that "tradition"...that is really a unproductive tactic..and for you to say he should kill him self.....that is wackkk..

Milk//How do you know it was his fault???

Love BiGB
xoxo


Well...

It's not about "eastern block", it's muuuch older. JFYI, in early XX century Russian officers were obliged to solve problems that engage question of Honour by duels... In some cases the only solution was a gun with one bullet... In some cases, like admirals Nebogatov and Rozhestvensky, the public opinion was really expecting them to commit suicide, if they didn't have the guts to fight to the end and die in combat.

I only meant I'll not be surprised if that Su pilots will choose this obvious solution.

BTW, the black boxes clearly showed that it wasn't a technical faut. The worst thing is that when they flew to Lvov they discovered that the airfield setup is completely different from what they expected, with planes on display and public in a place that was supposed to be clear. I doubt that any bastard responsible for the ground setup will admit his fault. Bloody freaks. :mad:
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