Charlton Heston's speech

[Sandman]

Note that I did not say... "I dislike that speech because Duke likes it."

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Note that I did not say... "I dislike that speech because Duke likes it."

No but you also did not say you liked it either. You just brought up the name of a well known klansman (hate merchant) and associated it with no other explanation. Obvious tactic, to smear by association.

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Maverick
Sandman,


Midnight, Reread your own post with that same concept you wrote. Then reread the two speeches listed above. Are you not also coloring them and not looking at them "critically"? I suggest to you that you have allowed your own concept of true "correct left thought" has deluded you from objectivity. Heston was espousing truly liberal ideas, such as individual freedom, responsibility for self and obligation to others. To me those are liberal ideas, not conservative.

You make some good points again Mav, but you seem to jump to some conclusions as well. The only criticism I made of the Heston speech was to clarify one of the "horrible examples" he mentioned.

I plan on looking into the other examples he mentioned as well. Yes I am biased in that I think they may not be the entire truth. If I find that they are I will be happy to share that with you as well. My point is, I plan on finding out.

[miko2d]

Originally posted by Maverick
Heston was espousing truly liberal ideas, such as individual freedom, responsibility for self and obligation to others. To me those are liberal ideas, not conservative.

 Mav, have you lived on the Moon last twenty years? It is true - in the would outside US those ideas can be rightly called "liberal" but in US the right term is "libertarian".
 They are as anti-"liberal" as they come. Every single point C.H. opposes it a part of US liberal agenda.

 miko

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Maverick


No but you also did not say you liked it either. You just brought up the name of a well known klansman (hate merchant) and associated it with no other explanation. Obvious tactic, to smear by association.

I thought it a rather nice bookend to bringing up the speech as if it were the gawdamn Gettysburg Address.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by miko2d


 Mav, have you lived on the Moon last twenty years? It is true - in the would outside US those ideas can be rightly called "liberal" but in US the right term is "libertarian".
 They are as anti-"liberal" as they come. Every single point C.H. opposes it a part of US liberal agenda.

 miko

This just in... Heston was a democrat at one time.

[mietla]

Originally posted by Sandman_SBM

I don't much like the speech.  

Would you mind to elaborate? Are you in favor of PC?

[Sandman]

I guess the key reason is that he begins the speech ranting about political correctness and then he finishes attacking the free speech of others that he finds objectionable.

It's hypocritical.

Hell... the song "Cop Killer" isn't about all police officers. It's about police corruption. I guess Heston had trouble making that distinction. Sure, there's anger in the lyrics. I guess Chuck missed the dispair.

[GRUNHERZ]

Miko, David Duke is a widely recognized racist type in the USA.

[midnight Target]

I shot the sheriff, but I swear it was in self-defense.
I shot the sheriff, and they say it is a capital offense.


Sheriff John Brown always hated me;
For what I don't know.
Every time that I plant a seed
He said, Kill it before it grows.
He said, Kill it before it grows.
I say:

I shot the Sheriff - Bob Marley

------------------------------------------------
So in anger
I challenged his right for the love of this maiden
Down went his hand for the gun that he wore
My challenge was answered in less than a heartbeat
The handsome young stranger lay dead on the floor

Just for a moment I stood there in silence
Shocked by the foul, evil deed I had done
Many thoughts raced through my mind as I stood there
I had but one chance and that was to run

El Paso - Marty Robbins

------------------------------------------------

Ice-T, "Cop Killer"
I got my black shirt on.
I got my black gloves on.
I got my ski mask on.
This toejam's been too long.

I got my twelve gauge sawed off.
I got my headlights turned off.
I'm 'bout to bust some shots off.
I'm 'bout to dust some cops off.


Cop killer, better you than me.
Cop killer, f**k police brutality!
Cop killer, I know your family's grievin'
(f**k 'em)
Cop killer, but tonight we get even.


I got my brain on hype.
Tonight'll be your night.
I got this long-assed knife,
and your neck looks just right.
My adrenaline's pumpin'.
I got my stereo bumpin'.
I'm 'bout to kill me somethin'
A pig stopped me for nuthin'!


Cop killer, better you than me.
Cop killer, f**k police brutality!
Cop killer, I know your mama's grievin'
(f**k her)
Cop killer, but tonight we get even.


Die, die, die pig, die!
F**k the police!
F**k the police!
F**k the police!
F**k the police!
F**k the police!
F**k the police!
F**k the police yeah!

 Cop killer, better you than me.
I'm a Cop killer, f**k police brutality!
Cop killer, I know your family's grievin'
(f**k 'em)
Cop killer, but tonight we get even.

F**k the police!
F**k the police!
F**k the police!
F**k the police!
F**k the police!
F**k the police!
F**k the police!
F**k the police, break it down.
F**k the police, yeah.
F**k the police, for Darryl Gates.
F**k the police, for Rodney King.
F**k the police, for my dead homies.
F**k the police, for your freedom.
F**k the police, don't be a popsicle.
F**k the police, have some muthaf**kin' courage.
F**k the police, sing along.


Cop killer!
Cop killer!
Cop killer!
Cop killer!
Cop killer, what you're gonna be when you grown up?
Cop killer, good choice.
Cop killer!
I'm a muthaf**kin' cop killer!


Cop killer, better you than me.
Cop killer, f**k police brutality!
Cop killer, I know your mama's grievin'
(f**k her)


Cop killer, but tonight we get even!

 

"This song came out originally on Body Count (1992), an album by a rap & heavy metal band of that name which Ice-T had been fronting. They had been playing a version of it in concert for a year, including as part of the 1991 Lollapalooza tour. The recorded version includes references to Rodney King, a black motorist whose beating by LAPD officers had been caught on videotape. Shortly after the record came out, a suburban jury acquitted the officers and riots broke out in South Central LA. Soon after that outbreak, a Dallas police group called for a boycott of the Ice-T record. Said Ice-T, who actually played a cop in the 1991 movie New Jack City, "I'm singing in the first person as a character who is fed up with police brutality. I ain't never killed no cop. I felt like it a lot of times. But I never did it." Soon, however, the offending song was removed from the record, and the next year, Warner Brothers dropped both the band and Ice-T as a solo artist. "

[Montezuma]

Originally posted by Hortlund
I didnt want to post it in the other thread...
 

Take your stinking paws off me, you damn dirty ape!

[midnight Target]

Now those lyrics are disturbing aren't they? But in Ice-T's own words he is portraying an angry young man and singing in the 1st person. If this is wrong, then Tommy Lee Jones is wrong for portraying Gary Gilmore. Tom Harmon should never have accepted the role in "The Deliberate Stranger". Alice Cooper should be vilified for wanting to blow up the school since it's out for summer. Playing a part is playing a part whether it be in song or in a movie. Time-Warner showed a complete lack of huevos on this one.


 I support the police. I support schools. Chuck was right about standing up for what is right. He just picked the wrong fight.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Montezuma

Take your stinking paws off me, you damn dirty ape!

So what is your problem? I dont remember ever even talking to you. Get a life and get out of my face.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by midnight Target
But in Ice-T's own words he is portraying an angry young man and singing in the 1st person.

SO  WHAT?

[edit]
Damn that is just so /%#%# stupid and it pisses me off so &¤#¤ bad.

Here is an idea. Exchange the word "cop" for "jew" and then pretend that Ice-T is portraying an angry young nazi and singing in the 1st person.

Would that make it any less offensive?

[miko2d]

Sandman_SBM: I guess the key reason is that he begins the speech ranting about political correctness and then he finishes attacking the free speech of others that he finds objectionable.
 This has nothing to do with Free Speech. Federal government is not supposed to limit free speech according to our constitution. C.H. is not federal government - he is a private citizen having full right to limit speech to whatever he likes in his home, his website or his private company. As a co-owner of a business (that is what being a shareholder means) he brought to attention of other co-owners that their business was earning money from what he considered immoral lyrics.

GRUNHERZ: Miko, David Duke is a widely recognized racist type in the USA.
 I kind of grasped that from the above exchange. I also spent a few hours since then reading his website looking for something I could outright deny. So far I failed. Would you care to take a look at it and point it out to me?
 It is very easy to get labeled a racist here in US. I was labeled a racist myself for talking about "The Bell Curve" book.