Author Topic: Ships - Task Group Model so Dumb  (Read 295 times)

Offline brady

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Ships - Task Group Model so Dumb
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2002, 02:01:45 AM »
No glory in guning it does nothing like I said for rank or usable perks, it is purely selfless, to protect the ship, and as has been said, they will drop before you get them.

Offline Sabre

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Ships - Task Group Model so Dumb
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2002, 02:31:15 PM »
I’ve posted on this topic many times before.  Specific and visible ship damage (turrets gone, fire and smoke, listing, loss of speed/maneuverability), affect of damage on operations (ala elevator damage temporarily halting A/C spawning on CV, superstructure hit taking out radar), direct helm and speed control…but we need to keep asking until we get it.  I also want real gun directors (up high, where they belong) for main and secondary batteries, with several turrets slaved to single director station.  I’d love to do Jutland or the Battle of Savo Island…we just need more fidelity in the naval warfare department.

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Offline Sabre

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« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2002, 10:32:20 AM »
I came across this on my hard drive, and thought it relavant tot he discussion..The Folly of Naval Operations in AH

Currently in the Aces High Main Arena environment, naval forces play a relatively minor role.  The most usual role of the standard AH task group, or TG (1xCV, 1xCA, 4xDE), is to place it within visual range of an enemy shore base and attempt to capture the base.  A combination of air-to-ground attacks (Jabo strikes) and shore bombardment is used to destroy the town and eliminate defenses, followed by an amphibious assault or airborne troop drop to affect the capture.  If the land base mounts any kind of defense, such an attack is fairly easy to thwart.  The question is, what is the best and proper use of naval forces in the AH MA?  This piece is intended to generate discussion towards this end.

Basically, it is easier to sink the CV than it is for the CV-based force to render an airfield inoperable and ready for capture.  Eight thousand pounds of bombs will sink the CV, resulting in the entire remaining TG vanishing 10 minutes later, to reappear back at it’s home port.  It can than take an hour or more to get this fleet back into position off shore of the enemy base.  Contrast this with what it takes to render a base defenseless.  It takes 12,000 lbs. of bombs to destroy all the hangers at a small base, 8,000 lbs. to destroy the shore batteries, over a thousand more to destroy all the AAA, and several thousand more beyond that to level the town in preparation for capture.  Now figure in the fact that hangers rebuild in 15 minutes – while destroyed ships do not – and you see why the land base holds the upper hand in an even contest between naval and land-based forces.  By even, I mean the same number of AH players on each side.

Historically, this is understandable.  Sea-based air power will loose against land-based air when numbers, pilot quality, intel, and technology are reasonably even.  Aircraft carriers are inherently more fragile than a base built on terra firma.  They are much more expensively, both in terms of initial cost to build and to man/operate/maintain, than an airbase.  The main, indeed the only advantage that naval forces have lies in their mobility.  They can move rapidly, not just tactically but strategically, and are thus more difficult to pinpoint for attack.  This mobility also allows them to attack at an unexpected point, and from an unexpected direction.  This was proven quite decisively during the 2001 AH scenario, “Hostile Shores.”  During frames 1 and 2, the lack of exact positions for the RN carriers prevented the Luftwaffe from getting close enough to put even one bomb on a British ship.  Conversely, in frame 3 the Luftwaffe had perfect position information on the Royal Navy carriers, thanks to the nearly invulnerable Ar234 reconnaissance planes made available to them.  The result? “Scratch one flattop.”

This is all fine and good in a scenario environment.  However, the MA practice of “CV camping” essentially takes away the only two advantages the naval force has, mobility and stealth.  This practice is understandable if one considers a couple of key, non-realistic factors in the Main Arena.  First, the big guns of the TG, the main battery of the attendant cruiser, has to be within easy visual range to be affective.  This is because (a) the waterline gun directing hampers effective targeting and (2) the need for a direct hit on by naval artillery to destroy a target.  Second, the slow speed of the LVT amphibious assault vehicles requires the fleet to be within shouting distance of the objective.  The latter was true in real life of course, but in real life the amphibious ships and naval gunfire support ships were not tied by an invisible tether to the aircraft carriers.  As it stands now naval forces in AH in general, and the aircraft carrier in particular, are mostly just window dressing.  They do not come close to having the impact on “the War” that the flattops had in real life.

How can we redress the shortcomings of naval forces in AH?  Should we even try?  It is after all primarily an air combat simulation.  The answer to this last question is “yes.”  If Aces High is to continue to evolve towards the goal of being the best WWII air combat simulation on the market, it must find a better way to represent the profound impact naval forces (particularly naval aviation) had on that conflict.  Keeping in mind the primary emphasis of the MA, i.e. intense and constant action, there are some things that can be done to influence players to utilize naval forces in a more historical, less “gamey” fashion.  I say influence players, not make them.  Excessive rules tend to make people resentful.  Far better to design the game mechanics in such a way as to reward proper behavior rather than dictate it.

First, we can acknowledge the fact that the amphibious assault craft and cruisers (and, hopefully, battleships:)) need to operate in littoral waters (i.e. shallow coastal areas), but that the carriers do not.  Separate the current standard MA fleet into two separate types of fleets, the CV battle group (CVBG) and the Amphibious Assault Group (AAG).  The AAG would have LVT’s enabled, but the CVBG would not.  Likewise, the AAG would have two cruisers at its core but no carriers, while the CVBG would have two carriers at its core but no cruisers.

Second, update the damage model of ships in general to allow them to take incremental damage, instead of the “completely operation or sunk” model we have now.  Damaged subsystems such as guns, vehicle spawning (damaged elevators for CV’s, troop transports – I can hope, can’t I – for AAG’s) would rebuild over time, just as damaged objects at land bases.  This would encourage players to consider withdrawing damaged fleets to allow for repairs, rather than the do-or-die mentality that presides over naval operations in the MA today.

Third, make naval gunfire the awesome and terrible weapon it was.  Add more realistic blast radius effects for all naval caliber weapons, as well as making the main guns of the destroyer escorts player controllable.  Move gunnery control up to the crow’s nest were it belongs, with the option to slave multiple turrets to a single gun director.

Finally, give players direct control over the helm, allowing them to control speed and heading.  So long as the TG commander stays “on the bridge”, allow him/her to con the ship manually.  As soon as they jump to a vehicle or another base/fleet, the fleet returns to its waypoint-guided course.
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Offline Minotaur

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Ships - Task Group Model so Dumb
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2002, 10:42:31 AM »
The TG AAA AI is too good.....

Offline Minotaur

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« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2002, 11:30:19 AM »
The TG AAA is way out of wack, Brady is right.....

The TG is basically a base, that can move and can attack.  The times to reach a target are long so that AH gives players the ability to direct movement.  However, the AI gives the TG too good of an edge in protecting itself.


After some thought, here is what I would prefer:
  • Keep control of the TG the same, except only allow remote player control of the CV
  • The Battle Ship and the Destroyers (support ships) will be tethered to the CV, like the current Bomber Formation concept
  • The only ship with AI, concerning AAA, will be the CV
  • Individual CV guns can be manned, just like individual field guns
  • Players can control support ship movement, similiar to a PT
  • If no player mans a support ship, it will auto re-formate to the TG
  • The support ships will have no gun AI, but a player can man any gun similiar to how it is handled in a bomber
  • The support ships guns will auto-syncronise their guns just like the way bomber guns auto-synchronise
  • The player can jump between the support ship gun positions, like a PT or a bomber
  • Damage to the CV is an "All or nothing proposal",  The AAA guns don't die unless the ship is killed
  • Damage to support ships will be progressive, individual guns can be killed
  • If a player is in a support ship and it is killed, then the player is killed and the player that killed the ship is given a victory
  • All ships only spawn from a port and must spawn with a CV
  • Up the damage required to kill a CV, lets say 12k bombs or 2 torpedoes
  • Kill Friendly will be active for support ships


Comments?

Offline popeye

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« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2002, 11:35:57 AM »
"AI gives the TG too good of an edge in protecting itself"

Hehe.  I watched a guy kill the entire TG with suicide Bf110 attacks.  Not high speed diving JABO attack -- but on the deck, straight into the AI ack.  He killed the cruiser, and DEs with one pass for each.

Yeah...they should be easier to kill.   :)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2002, 11:39:56 AM by popeye »
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Offline MoonJuice

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« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2002, 11:46:09 AM »
Why are CV guns not damagable and Why does my cat poop in my shoes?

Offline Turbot

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« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2002, 12:11:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by myelo
What would people think about setting the fleet AA guns so that the individual guns could be killed? That is, you could try to de-ack the fleet like at fields. Seems like this would be more realistic.


Warbirds has been that way for years

Offline SKurj

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« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2002, 12:49:47 PM »
The TG is not some indestructible monster...

It takes a long time to get to a base sure... but by the time it arrives its been suicde jabo'd to the edge of extinction...

Its a base that can be killed with 8000lbs of ord...

The TG isn't very survivable now, due to how it is used, and abused(sucicde jabos)

I say leave it alone, gunners get kills easy enuff, and the whole TG goes down just as easily.


SKurj

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2002, 03:29:24 PM »
Very true Popeye, but the key word is "Suicide".  This is the methodology most often used.  However; there is a difference between "High Risk Mission Suicide" and "Kamikaze Suicide".  The player making the Kamikaze run knows they will be shot down. They are simply gaming the game.

IMO this breaks down into components:
  • Ship AI guns preclude non-kamikaze attacks a very low percentage of success
  • Ships die too easily, and die in a "All or Nothing" manner
  • The most successful method reaches equilibrium, regardless of survivability or how realistic it is
  • This is a game
No doubt a Battleship should be nearly impervous to strafing by any aircraft, as would a CV.  The Destroyers would be some what more susceptable, but still very resistent.  

Ship board armored guns should be able to be taken out by strafing.  The difficulty varying from impossible to mediumly hard, depending upon the gun armor and the projectile being used.  The use of explosive ordnance would be a different story altogether.  This should be the preferred method of attacking ships.  Gun armor should be modeled similiar to how GV armor is modeled.

Ships need to be tougher and the gun AI needs to be weaker.
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Offline Furzy

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« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2002, 05:35:59 PM »
Sabre's mentioned LVT support ships. I got me thinking. Instead of changing control of current task group. It would be nice to be able to spawn a DE just like an LVT or mabye like PT with mannable guns. Heavy perks though. I like the Crows nest gun control too.

Furzy