Cloning as a "Reproductive Right" Liberals?

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by myelo


Here's a better question: Will the right-wing “pro-life” group support it? Cloning as a reproductive procedure would provide a means for otherwise infertile people to have children. What could be more “pro-life” than that?

Doubt it, your messing with Nature...whether your vacuuming out a womans womb of an unborn child, or encouraging cloning...

[midnight Target]

It would seem that Mr Ripsnort is hip deep in the "messing with nature" trap.

Who would like to perform the coup de gras?

[senna]

Cloning is actually a reproductive left.

[10Bears]

Heh, so you see Grunhurz, it’s your own Conservative debating side comes out vehemently against cloning. Not the femms. I knew they would. Like Sandman or Midnight said in another thread, “how do you debate logic with the faithful?” Why, it would take a leap of faith..

Here’s the problem: They are all against abortion, hell most of us are too, I’m very much against abortion think it should be illegal. That said what do you do with the fetuses that have already been aborted?. A proper burial they say and that’s fine. But what if some are used for stem cell research and reproduce cells that could be used to cure Parkinson's disease, Alzheimer's, growing new cells for burn victims and many other maladies.

Ah but what of the soul of the fetuses?.. If asked, the soul would want to contribute to the betterment of mankind. The comment about an army of supermen I guess congers up a vision of marching storm troopers all identical. Not at all. A generation of healthier, stronger, smarter, more attractive people is a good thing.

This wouldn’t be the first time fundamental Christians tried to stop progress. They even tried to stop to printing press. Here’s a tip for ya Grun, fundamental Christians are every bit as dangerous as fundamental Islamics.

[hardcase]

Just because you cant grasp scientific advancements, doesn't mean they are not gonna happen. Why is it that republicans like to do Daddy Spank on us poor ole non elitist schooled infants. You cannot stop someone cloning themselves or someone else..all it takes is money and expertise.  Expertise is coming and lots of non replublican folks have fortunes.


Wonder why repubs are against it..just think...1000 Dick Cheneys running all the oil companies.


hardcase

[Eagler]

"A generation of healthier, stronger, smarter, more attractive people is a good thing."

and I guess this would be part of subsidized Family Planning for those who couldn't afford it or would it just be those nasty rich ppl getting "healthier, stronger, smarter, more attractive people" while the poor continued to get sicker, weaker, dumber & uglier.

[10Bears]

just think...1000 Dick Cheneys running all the oil companies.


Oh God... you might've just made me change my point of view!

[GRUNHERZ]

"Heh, so you see Grunhurz, it’s your own Conservative debating side comes out vehemently against cloning. Not the femms."


Of course the Conservatives are against it.  

The point of the thread is to see if the liberals will in turn come out for it as some sort of new fangled "Reproductive Right".... And call the ban on cloning an oprresive act against their rights.


"Here’s a tip for ya Grun, fundamental Christians are every bit as dangerous as fundamental Islamics."

I am sure you would not object to me adding fundementalist leftist, anti-god, feminist, communist ,USA hater, male hating, PC, white people hating, anti-capitalist  types.

[Eagler]

the left will come up with an abort_clone machine

it'll look like something out of a Dr Seuss book

it'll be sucking in one end, reconfiguring the "material" into the "perfect" er I mean "healthier, stronger, smarter, more attractive" mini me and blowing it out the other

[Sabre]

Anyone seen that movie, "Gattica"?  I am against cloning on religious grounds, but the impacts to society worry me as well.  I'm not against progress and technological advancement; however, I've seen little evidence that any culture or society existing today has the wisdom or the social fiber to introduce such a drastic change to the very fabric of that society.  

As for Miko's assertion that he would be able to raise himself better than his parents, that's not born out by the evidence.  People tend to repeat the mistakes of their parents, even the worst of those.  Not everyone who was beaten as a child or has an alcoholic for a parent will do those same things to their child, but there is a very high incident of it happening just that way.

Call me a Christian radical if you like, it won't change my belief system, and that belief system is what guides my moral choices.  I believe large scale acceptance of cloning would further erode the already weakened societal belief in the sanctity of life.  I also see the potential for large-scale social upheaval, exaggerated and excellerated by the genetic engineering that will surely follow.  Again my opinion.  No...my belief.  

On a personal note, I do not sneer at those that do not believe in God or some other supreme being, but do object when others sneer at my belief that there is one.  I believe in the soul as the only passport to immortality.  A clone would not be me, so it would do nothing for me in terms fulfilling the desire to have some part of me continue on after this body of mine fails.

[10Bears]

I am sure you would not object to me adding fundementalist leftist, anti-god, feminist, communist ,USA hater, male hating, PC, white people hating, anti-capitalist types.

Why sure! I defend with my life your right to speak about anything you want.

[midnight Target]

sicker, weaker, dumber & uglier.

Ahhh, more Republicans!

[GRUNHERZ]

Midnight may your RV business suffer great failiures!!!

[-dead-]

Originally posted by miko2d
-dead-: Send in the clones! Why not? The clone won't be exactly the same person - won't think the same, like the same stuff. They'd just be genetically the same, exactly like [] identical twins
 Identical twins - even those raised separately think substantially the same and like the same stuff - foods, activities, mates, etc. But why would it be a problem even if a clone is exactly the same person?

I merely wanted to dispel some of the myths surrounding the clone thing. Like for example the myth that a "you" raised in the 2000's was going to end up thinking much the same as a "you" raised in the 50s / 60s / 70s / 80s - so two identical twins raised during the same time period is not the best example. And at guess you've been hanging around with different identical twins from the ones I know... chalk & cheese ... and the fights! wow.

Though why anyone would want a clone is beyond me: The only thing I can think of is it'd be perfect for organ transplants,
From the nature's standpoint the clone is you. There are quite logical reasons why someone would want to raise a baby genetically identical to him/herself.

Or that myth... From nature's standpoint the clone is the clone, I'm afraid. The clone's fingerprints would be different, the retinal patterns would be different, the brain pathways and therefore the mind would be different etc etc...
There are logical reasons, eh? Such as?

The only thing I can think of is it'd be perfect for organ transplants, but only if you don't mind murdering/mutilating your twin. For that sort of stuff, mucking about with stem cells is much more ethical and probably much faster and cheaper.
Quite the opposite - a rational man without complexes (like me) would say - "I have a clone - so there is another 'me' living on this Earth. Now I can die without wasting money on prolonging my decay. Rather I would leave whatever wealth and accumulated experience to me/him".

Or you could just have kids like everyone else... it's much cheaper, less faff, and evolutionary (or doesn't that count for anything to a rational man?).

 We are already way past absurd in wasting resources on life-supporting elderly corpses. If you love someone that much, make a clone and turn off the switch.

Why bother? They wouldn't be that person at all. They wouldn't have any of the previous person's mutual experiences, so you'd have nothing in common. They would also be several years younger than you. - you'd have to wait about 20 years before they would even bother having a serious conversion with a old fart, such as you would be.

and a bad evolutionary strategy - ie your clone is every bit at risk of dying from whatever diseases you're genetically at risk from.
 As are your children - they will inherit the same genes.

Biology 101: they only inherit half your genes, and sometimes there are pleasant mistakes: that's how evolution works, remember?

In short - purely a "we did it" kind of achievement, where the end result serves very little purpose, although the techniques learnt may be of benefit.
 It is another hot issue on which a consensus will never be reached. For you it's a curious tidbit of knowlege - like christians' silly concern about their hypothetical 'immortal souls', but for some it's a real way to personal immortality.

Do us both a favour and look up personal in the dictionary. For personal immortality, I'd stick with antioxidants. Cloning is only going to give you genetic immortality. Personally, you die. If you're not so fussed with personal immortality - again, why not go down the having kids route?

Right now I've said all that - I'd still support your right to clone yourself, however deluded I feel it to be. I'd just urge you to think carefully - if it's immortality you're after, cloning is a complete waste of cash.

[Kieran]

Why, I'm surprised. The lefties have hurled a few insults, but not one of the louder lefties has bothered to answer the questions, "What happens if you clone someone that doesn't meet your standards? Does it get destroyed? Is it an "it" or "he/she", and when does that distinction take place?"

You know darn well what you'd do- you'd kill it, just like you kill your unwanted children. Then you'd perform medical experiments on the corpse, and try to tell me I should be thankful because you might find the cure for cancer or some other disease in the process. No thanks.

Same goes for experiments on fetuses- I'd rather have the disease than to introduce a mechanism into society that rationalizes murder of innocent children.