When Is it Ackstarring?

[Yosus]

Hehe ... Mino, if you'd read the responses of those 'people jumping in', you would have known that the public naming happpened in MA on channel one.

As to the quote from RAM in your sig, it appears to be a neat rebuttal of my suggestion to take the 'discussion' of gameplay to the gameplay forum ... it's cute, but I think my suggestion is valid.

As to the other points in your post ... I agree    

Cheers
Yosus.

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“One day, flight simulation will be so realistic, that you’ll need to wear brown corduroy … “
Phoenix Squadron.

[This message has been edited by Yosus (edited 07-17-2000).]

[Downtown]

Jekyll, a B-17 turning to chase a F4U-1C turning, and I had two notches of flap, and airspeed was less than 200 MPH as was altitude would fall off on one wing and auger.  That wing would hit the ground and the B-17 would cart wheel and break up and explode or something.  I believe that a B-17 shouldn't turn like that!

I am sorry for my comments on one, I am frustrated about being attacked by bombers. The FM of the B-17 and B-26, the gunnery of the B-17 and B-26, the addition of external views give bombers a significant advantage.

I believe that when people start attacking fighters with bombers there is something wrong.

I did suggest the addition of Blood Dragons on the GP/FB Forum.  But I also believe that something should be done to limit the ability of Bombers to attack fighters.  Make bombers bombers, not fighter bombers.

Again, I apoligize for the Ackstarring comment, even by the definition above

"Ackstar: A bomber being used as a flying AAA battery. The majority of Warbirds pilots frown on this practice".

Is this not what you were doing Jekyll?  It doesn't specify Attack or Defense, were you not orbiting the base, using your guns as Anti-Aircraft (Artillery?)  You were orbiting A2 to protect the incomming goon from fighters in a B-17.  You had dropped your bombs and using the guns to keep fighters from spawning?  So we disagree on this definition?  But I can even tolerate your use of bombers in an offensive roll, if the bombers fly like they are supposed too.  I don't like being chased by bombers, they shouldn't turn with fighters on the deck, they should fall off on a wing if they try this.



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"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
    lkbrown1@tir.com    
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!

[Graywolf]

 

Originally posted by Downtown:
Jekyll, a B-17 turning to chase a F4U-1C turning, and I had two notches of flap, and airspeed was less than 200 MPH as was altitude would fall off on one wing and auger.  That wing would hit the ground and the B-17 would cart wheel and break up and explode or something.  I believe that a B-17 shouldn't turn like that!

Please drop this. Unladened bombers are rather manuverable. Just over a week ago I was watching a pair of B17s (Pink Lady and Sally B) doing 70+ degree banks at low altitude. And these are rather valuble, venerable old aircraft and these days unlikely to be flown that close to the limits.

Remember a least a couple of of pilots got grounded for looping/rolling Lancasters.

If you're saying the performance of the B17 is incorrect then you need to back it up with hard data (see the other threads about plane performance for examples).

Otherwise you are coming across as complaining that a plane was too hard for you to shoot down and  so it should be 'nuetered' until you{/B] can. This doesn't tend to show you in a good light.

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Graywolfe <tim@flibble.org>

[-raxx-]

Downtown,

the term "Ackstarring" started when pilots in Warbirds discovered that you can roll a bomber out onto a field and the automatic gunners would fire while the plane was on the runway,  when fighters started carrying 1000lb bombs to drop on these ackstars, they started rolling and dumping bombs just off the end of the runway and circling the feild in defence.  This is your mobile or airborne AAA platform and describes a defensve use of bombers when field AAA has been eliminated.  This behavior was curtailed by gunners being disabled untill the bomber was flying with wheels off the ground and became an easy target for attacking fighters.  Cratering the runway also destroyed landing gear and inhibited takeoff.

Acstarring can't happen in Aces High because you can't fire the bomber's guns while on the ground to defend a field.  

Downtown, looking at your stats you seem to be getting the short end of a rather pointy stick when it comes to attacking bombers.  If you want I'll take you into the Training Arena and show you how to attack and defend a B17.  It's not difficult to learn and untill someone shows you how I don't think you are ever going to be satisfied, (hell I shot down a B17 in a zero two days ago so it can't be that hard).  Maybe education will provide a solution to the problem you face rather than getting all wound up.

Telling me I'm not supposed to do something because it's not fair or that I'm a typical gamer won't win you the argument.  I've been called worse by nicer people.

If you want to have realistic fights with buffs down at 20k then ask HT to model icing on the wings at higher altitudes but at the same time demand that fighters guns freeze in those same conditions.  
If you want Bombers to have gunners disabled in greater than 2G turns than demand the same effect on fighters.  If you want buffs to have guns disabled under 2000ft then also demand that fighters and vehicles not instantly respawn at airfields under attack.  
If you want to reduce the effectiveness of a bomber's guns untill it drops bombs then I'll roll and drop a single bomb 500 yards from the airfield.  
If I'm not supposed to fly through a hanger to shake a con off my tail then model the doors as being closed.

I have not yet seen a single fact from the "anti-bomber" faction that suggests the bombers are overmodelled.  There is just the unsupported argument based on anecdotal evidence that bombers are overmodelled and kill fighters.  There is no basis of fact merely a feeling that you get killed to often than is to your liking.

Lemme know about the training Arena.  I'll try to fit in a time that suits you.

raxx

BTW Dnil, "Flying gay", I just about killed myself laffing at that one =P  Ya need some new bait fer the hook.

[gatt]

I can easily understand Downtown. A lot of time bombers shot me down and I got pissed off. Bombers have big advantages in AH. Laser Brownings, bigger target bubbles (IMHO) and so on. I dont think PYRO will change anything about it.

Forget any classic low-six, co-level, and predictable path when you attack. The only ways that works for me are high-low attacks (very high AoA) and my personal crazy attack: vertically from low (with tons of E). Two un-historical and quite undoable attacks indeed. Unhistorical and strange buff performance require the same kind of attacks, IMHO.

So I have to forget to attack low buffs when I'm low and stay very far from them just to avoid to become the prey. In TOD #5, while defending our HQ from Rooks zombie attacks, I was able to choose my tactics:

 

Query results:
GATT has 33 kills and has been killed 4 times in the C.205 against the B-17G.

And no, I never bail-out. But many times I had to type: "bye-bye buff, play alone, I'll not hunt you ..."  
 

[Mox]

 

Originally posted by Downtown:
I want bombers to be able to fly to enemy fields, targets and drop bombs, then fly back to their base and land, not loiter as CAP and vultures.

People take up a B-26 or B-17, drop the bombs after clearing the runway, and go out looking to dogfight.  That is what I want to put an end too, dog fighting in Bombers.

DT,  While I understand your frustration with bombers I'm not sure I agree with you on making bombers “just bomb and go home”.  I took over a month break from AH and decided to give it  try Friday night, I had so much fun that I logged around 20hrs of play this weekend.  One of the best times I had yesterday was when we were trying to capture A2 and I selected a B26 to fly for the ack.  I killed all the ack then proceeded to strafe 3 M16’s while some Knight 17’s finished off the hangers.  One of the panzers on the field (there were 2 panzers I believe and 3-4 M16’s) was Visconti which was talking trash (as in ribbing, just good fun) in the open channel about how we would never get the field with all those tanks and M16’s on the field.  I took my B26 on the deck and got 3 of the M16 with help of the few fighters we had, I then emptied all my 50cal into the 2 panzers left hoping to damage their treads so the incoming heavy fighters could hit them with bombs.  I was not doing what I would call “ackstarring” as I was shooting and flying (no gunner).  I used every single round I had in ALL my gun position (yes even the top turret!)

We all felt pretty good about getting the base as I watched our M3 roll up to the map room and let the drunks out as I landed and pulled up next to the M3.  If the bombers didn’t come down and strafe those vehicles we would not have gotten that base.  

I agree it’s nowhere close to being historical.
I agree it’s gaming the game.
I’ve given up on caring as to the way people play in the MA.  I used to waste a lot of brain power on people in the MA when they were “gaming the game”, now I’ve decided to let anything go in the MA and hope and pray for a Historical Arena soon so I could leave the madness of the MA to the people that want to “game the game”.

Mox
TWC


[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 07-17-2000).]

[Pongo]

Hi DT been a while.
I recomend you take a buff up and try what that guy did to you.......
We ridicule bombers when they fly to high..
If we ridicule them when they fly too low.
what is left. They are playing the game and all but the best of them are very vulnerable when flown in the way you describe. Stay low if they are vulching, get out of dodge and get some height...If you are up in a 1c they are cooked...but you might be tagged a little doing it.
buff pilots. The pucker factor is high when ya meet em.

[Mighty1]

I don't see how you can say it's gaming the game. If it has guns and I can point them at you I'm going to.

It's really no worse than a fighter vulching.

I don't think there is such a thing as ackstarring in AH. Not like it is in WB at least. Without otto it's just some guy trying to get me before I get him.

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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"