Author Topic: Time for ANTI-GUN people to put their money where their mouth is!  (Read 3258 times)

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #180 on: November 05, 2002, 11:42:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
The one thing that's always true....

The guy with the gun always wins!
-SW


What if someone sneaks up on him with a bat? ;)

Offline Kanth

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« Reply #181 on: November 05, 2002, 12:25:35 PM »
Not if you drop a 500lb bomb on him.


Quote
Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
The one thing that's always true....

The guy with the gun always wins!
-SW
Gone from the game. Please see Spikes or Nefarious for any Ahevents.net admin needs.

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #182 on: November 05, 2002, 02:03:46 PM »
Quote
So let's see.... Your Firearms Act of 1997 got rid of most (large caliber) of your legally registered handguns and then they got the rest in the '98 Firearms Amendment Act, correct? It also rounded up the newly "illegal" long guns.

So, why then do we see Homicides rise in '98 and '99? In England Wales & Scotland?

Guns were not easily available in the UK before, they aren't now. Changing the law that affected a tiny minority of people had no effect on overall crime rates, or on murder in particular.

LEgal handguns in Britain were registered, owned only by people with clean records, had to be kept in secure safes, with the firing pin or other part of the mechanism stored in a seperate location.

The handgun ban in Britain had no effect on crime one way or the other. That's why it was stupid, a cheap publicity stunt by politicians.

There is a big difference between futher gun control in Britain, which had very few firearm crimes, and the US, which has a huge number.

It's rather like banning skiing and climbing to reduce the accident rate. It would have zero effect in the Netherlands, a large effect in Switzerland.

Anyone who tried to extrapolate what would happen in Switzerland based on the Dutch figures would be misguided, to say the least.

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #183 on: November 05, 2002, 02:11:23 PM »
Sorry, the reason murders went up in the UK:

Fewer policemen, more lenient sentencing, less chance of getting a conviction. The 90s saw the police under constant attack over the quality of evidence in cases from the 70s and 80s, and lots of people being cleared on appeal.

Britain is practically a criminal's paradise, certainly when compared to America.

If the death sentence in America is partly responsible for the fall in the murder rate, combined with the tougher sentencing for other criminals (3 strikes and you're out, etc), then weaker sentencing in Britain is bound to have the opposite effect.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #184 on: November 05, 2002, 02:43:22 PM »
beetle... you seem to be saying that the murders in the U.S. would simply stop murdering people if they had a slighty more difficult time in obtaining firearms.   Or.. that the number would be reduced by the amount of homicides now being comited with firearms (since firearms would now be illegal and they wouldn't want to break the law whilst commiting murder).

 I am saying that all you would do is disarm those who are least likely to commit a murder (the law abiding).   I am also saying that without the deterent Of countless firearms in circulation amongst the law abiding we would see a huge increase in rape and robbery and other crimes...... criminals going unopposed like in yur country.   I truly believe (and the facts bear me out) that in our country the more lax the gun laws the less crime we have.  I also believe that guns prevent more murders than they cause.

What do you feel is the best?  Just don't resist?   The strong deserve your goods?

I also feel that our government is much more receptive to an armed America but....

I understand the cultural difference... after all... we didn't agree with you guys on government or we wouldn't be here... any independence has been bred out of you guys centuries ago... just like the Japanesse.   If any terrorist or serial killing is "copied" in britan it won't be because of the U.S. .. the Uk had the worst serial killer on record (shipman?) and he was a doctor who never owned a gun.

as for my cat(s).   I told you the truth.   As for my "macho" image... well.... many on these boards have met me... you have not.   I doubt that they would agree with you on how I carry myself.   I do like the things that men like tho if that is what you meant.
lazs

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #185 on: November 05, 2002, 03:35:50 PM »
Nashwan: There is a big difference between futher gun control in Britain, which had very few firearm crimes, and the US, which has a huge number.

It's rather like banning skiing and climbing to reduce the accident rate. It would have zero effect in the Netherlands, a large effect in Switzerland.


 You are either lying here or ignorant of US conditions. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, assume ignorance and enlighten you.

Murder Offenders by Age, Sex, and Race, 2001 (excluding 9/11):

White - 5174 (33.4%)
Black - 5521 (35.6%)
Other - 273
Unknown - 4520 (29.2%)

 Assume the "unknown" split among white and black equally - even though IMO more unsolved crime is likely to involve blacks than whites.
 Note that hispanics comprise almost 12% of the population but in US govt. statistics are counted as "whites" if criminals but often as "hispanics" if victims - which worsens white stats considerably - but let's pretend that everyone is white here - no hispanics.

 So Whites (+hispanics) that comprise 88% of the population totaled ~48% of murderers in 2001 while blacks who comprised 12% of the population totaled ~52% of murderers!

 So the rate among whites is really at least 2.5 times lower than the total one for US. I believe that number would be quite in line with those of UK and other european countries!

 Whites in USA mostly live separately from blacks - geographically, culturally, etc. So we really have two distinct countries interspersed on US territory - mostly white 1st-world country with non-remarkable statistics despite widespread gun ownership and 3rd-world african country wity typical 3-rd world african violence statistics...

 It makes as much sense to limit gun-ownership rights of law-abiding whites because of crimes commited by blacks as it is to screw up Netherlands because of climbing deaths in Switzerland!

 Not that I propose to limit gun-ownership of law-abiding blacks either - just want to show you there is not much difference between people in UK and similar people comprising majority of US population despite huge disparity in gun-ownership.

 miko

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #186 on: November 05, 2002, 04:52:54 PM »
Lazs -
Quote
I truly believe (and the facts bear me out) that in our country the more lax the gun laws the less crime we have. I also believe that guns prevent more murders than they cause.
That's total bollocks. What do you know about FACTS? The opposite is true! If you would look on page 10 of the Home Office document you will see a list of 32 countries. The homicide rate is given for each. The USA has the third highest homicide rate in the entire list!!! The USA also has a higher proportion of privately owned guns than any other country on the planet! Geez, Lazs - what more proof do you want! The only countries higher on the list than yours are South Africa (which has seen enormous political problems since the ending of apartheid and a total breakdown of law and order) and Russia.

I've finally figured you out Lazs. I'm ashamed it took me so long, but just as in that last argument we had about AH scores, you are simply blind to statistical data that does not favour your cause or your point of view. Got a problem with the stats? Solve it the Lazs way - pretend the stats are wrong or don't exist! Why not take the easy way as you did with me - and say that the Home Office sucks!  LOL :D

The thing is, Lazs, you contradict yourself! You openly admit that you feel as safe in a rough area of London without a gun as you would in a Church hall on bingo night - and yet London has relatively few guns - fewer than where you come from - but then you say that you feel the need for a gun within the confines of your own home in an area which, by your logic, is supposedly safer! Go on Lazs, show us whether you're a man or a mouse. Get that cat picture done. You said that you might suffer grievous bodily harm if you tried to hold your cats - is that because they think you're a mouse? ROFL!

Mr. Toad - I might not have been quite clear on the New York issue. You dismissed my account of crime in New York by saying
Quote
New York has nothing to do with it.
and I have posted further up why you are wrong on this point. I should add that because New York is your most populous city  (18 million, and a higher number of blacks than any other city in the world) that the sort of reduction in crime that New York has seen in recent years is bound to play a significant part in the downward trend of the American crime rate as a whole, given that the population of New York is about 8% of the total population nationwide.

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #187 on: November 05, 2002, 05:26:49 PM »
Miko, no need to repeat what borders on racism in 2 threads, I've replied in the other one.

Toad, I've tracked down the rules for recording crimes in the UK, and the changes that were made.

Current rules at:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/countrules.html

"GENERAL RULE: ONE CRIME FOR EACH PERSON MURDERED
Four bodies are discovered murdered at the same address. Four crimes (class 1).
* Victims injured should be counted in addition to those murdered .
A places a bomb in a public house and warns the police. The bomb explodes
before full evacuation, killing 10 people and wounding a further 15, with the
remaining 4 people escaping unhurt.
Ten crimes of murder (class 1), plus 15 crimes
of wounding (class 5).
* Principal Crime: see also general rules section F & end page of chapter.
A robs a bank and deliberately shoots dead a cashier. One crime of murder (class 1).
A rapes B and causes her death by strangulation. One crime of murder (class 1)."

From the main UK stats I linked to earlier:

"Although Home Office counting rules have brought greater consistency to the recording of crimes in
the 43 police forces of England and Wales, variation still remains. The existence of differences in
recording was illustrated in two recent reports, On the Record (HMIC, 2000) and the Review of
Police Forces Crime Recording Practices (Burrows et al, 2000), and recognised in the Review of
Crime Statistics (Simmons, 2000). As a result of these findings the Association of Chief Police
Officers (ACPO), with the Home Office, developed a new National Crime Recording Standard
(NCRS) which has been adopted across all police forces from 1 April 2002. Copies of the standard
are available on the Home Office web site (at http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/countrules.html)."

All these reports I've already linked to:

On The Record

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/hmic/otr00.htm

Review of
Police Forces Crime Recording Practices

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs/hors204.pdf

Review of
Crime Statistics

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crimprev/review.pdf

None of them have anything approaching the "quote" on that site. Reading through them, it is absolutely clear that crimes were recorded according to the police report at the time, with some being dropped later if complaints were withdrawn. It's 100% clear that crimes were not recorded based on trial outcomes, or even based on wether someone was charged.

The last report goes in to details about why some reports were not recorded as crimes:

"1. In the majority of cases it appeared that the police believed there was not sufficient
evidence that a notifiable offence had occurred. This included incidents where the
parties involved were no longer at the scene, neither the victim nor the offender
disclosed offences, where the offences revealed were not notifiable or genuine errors
had been made by the callers. For example:
 A gang of youths causing trouble but no sign of the youths on police arrival.
 A neighbour reported a domestic argument, neither the man or woman
involved reported offences and there were no visible injuries to either party.
 A caller alleged his girlfriend was wrecking his house. The furniture broken
belonged to the alleged offender and therefore ‘no crime occurred’.
 ‘Indecent exposure’ turned out to be a local vagrant with torn trousers who had
fallen asleep on the pavement"

"2. No complaint was made, or the police found no complainant. Typical examples
here were:
 A caller alleged assault – he had a bleeding nose – and on arrival at the scene
he refused to provide details to the police, and sent them away.
 A report of assault was not crimed because the officer reported ‘no allegation
was made.’
3. ‘Advice was given’ to the alleged offender or the offence/offender was otherwise
dealt with.
 Male customer reported assaulting security guard. When police arrived no
offences were alleged. Police advised both parties.
 A woman reported that her ex-boyfriend was harassing her, the officer passed
the incident to the family safety unit.
 Reports of a violent domestic incident, the offender was arrested for breach of
the peace.
4. The allegation was subsequently withdrawn by the person who made it.
 A woman reported that her ex-boyfriend had made threats to kill her, but
denied the offences when the police arrived"

It gives examples where mistakes were clearly made:

"In a number of cases the police had clearly made an error in not recording a crime,
or the officer dealt with the matter by recording it in his/her pocket book only. In one
quarter of all the queries submitted to one force as to why incidents were not crimed,
the reply was simply the matter was an “oversight”. In one case, an officer
responded to a query about an assault allegation saying that he would pursue the
matter and “record a detected crime when an arrest had been made”!"

The exclamation mark is in the report. That indicates it wasn't common practice in any way to file reports based on charges, court cases, or anything other than the evidence of wether a crime had been commited. A body with injuries is fairly clear evidence.

I also doubt very much that any murders or suspicious deaths would come under the "oversight" category. It's fairly easy to forget broken window, or ignore a row between two neighbours, but not to "forget" to record a bloodstained body.

Incidentally, every suden or suspicious death has to go before a coroners court, with the policemen involved called to give evidence, so they have to be recorded.

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #188 on: November 05, 2002, 05:42:14 PM »
It had the highest murder rate with gun control.

It still has gun control the same very strict laws as before.

Crime went down because of changes in the mayors office and in law enforcement.

It had nothing to do with gun laws either way.


Beet1e
 You are no more objective then Laz, this is something that for you, nothing presented will change your views.

You might as well stop now.

People like Laz and I will not change our view either, and it is pretty tiresome going around in circles with someone who has no real reason to care. You are not a U.S. citizen, you have no right to come here and influence our laws. You have the right to talk about it tell your pasty and white in the face (oh never mind you are a brit) but I, and I am sure allot of others are tired of the debate as well.
If you do not understand gun owners in the U.S., after all this debate you never will.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2002, 05:44:32 PM by GtoRA2 »

Offline bounder

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« Reply #189 on: November 05, 2002, 06:04:57 PM »
Beet1e wrote:
Quote
That's total bollocks. What do you know about FACTS? The opposite is true! If you would look on page 10 of the Home Office document you will see a list of 32 countries. The homicide rate is given for each. The USA has the third highest homicide rate in the entire list!!! The USA also has a higher proportion of privately owned guns than any other country on the planet! Geez, Lazs - what more proof do you want! The only countries higher on the list than yours are South Africa (which has seen enormous political problems since the ending of apartheid and a total breakdown of law and order) and Russia.


That's an erroneous correlation, not even close to evidence of a causal link between gun ownership and homicide.

I believe that this is a very common mistake made with statistics e.g
Country A has more homicide than Country B
Country B eats less marshmallows than Country A
Marshmallows causes homicide.

or even
State A has more Dolphins than State B
State B has more Mexican Restaurants than State A
Mexican Food kills Dolphins

I'm sure you can think of more amusing examples...
Beet1e, I believe what you're saying is probably right, but that was not a credible argument IMEHO

Offline SC-Sp00k

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« Reply #190 on: November 05, 2002, 06:23:22 PM »
Are you trying to tell us that Americans also have personal issue Marshmellows?

Is this true? Can someone verify the source of this information?

Lemme tell ya about the Buy Back Marshmellow scheme and why it works for us........

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #191 on: November 05, 2002, 06:36:17 PM »
Bounder - you would have a good point. If we just said
  • USA has more guns than any other country
  • The death rate amongst young black males in the USA is higher than it is in Europe
  • Guns kill more black males in the USA than they do in Europe
then I might say to you "That's an erroneous correlation, not even close to evidence of a causal link between gun ownership and homicide.", and pass the marshmallows. But the difference is that we do have homicide statistics which support what I have said earlier. You might want to look over previous posts, and not just the last one.

GTO - I never said it had anything to do with changes in gun control law. Hell, we know that American gun control laws don't work anyway. You said
Quote
Crime went down because of changes in the mayors office and in law enforcement.
- and I agree with you entirely. The point is that crime went down because of that, and not because of the proliferation of privately owned guns. You said that "nothing presented will change your views". If you mean that you will never convince me that 1+1 does not = 2, then I agree with you again, though some of the arithmetic needed on the stats is rather more involved than that, so I can see why you're struggling.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2002, 06:38:19 PM by beet1e »

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #192 on: November 05, 2002, 11:09:55 PM »
What if someone sneaks up on him with a bat?  ;)

He'd better pray to his God he knocks him da shreck out!

Not if you drop a 500lb bomb on him.

From what? A bomber? That bomber will get shot down by a fighter! With missles or guns, either way it's a high speed projectile!

So there, the guy with the gun always wins... unless you knock him da shreck out.
-SW

Offline Toad

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« Reply #193 on: November 05, 2002, 11:19:56 PM »
Beet1e,

Quote
Rather like installing anti-virus software on a PC rather than waiting to get zapped by a computer virus, and then reacting, and at the same time getting paranoid about a harmless .PDF file.


Thank you for your supercilious assessement of what happened to me. I'm sure you're well versed in exactly how it happened, how it was all my fault and how I have been traumatized ever since. Obviously, you know everything about me. Except, of course, that I did have an anti-virus program running then. But I appreciate your considerate response nonetheless.




Quote
Yes, it does indeed. Given that after the gun ban, the number of homicides remained quite stable, it is clear that guns made bugger all difference, which is because.... we live in a relatively gun-free environment


Well, we agree in part. It is clear that guns made bugger all difference, as you say.

We of course differ in the explanation of why that would be so. You take as faith that it's because you essentially had no guns to begin with.

You certainly had fewer guns than the US population.  One estimate that I saw said England & Wales had about 5% gun ownership prior to the ban. Figuring England ~ 50 million and Wales ~ 3 million, that's still a significant number of guns, don't you think? Shall we say 2.5 million or so?

In 1995, some of these approximately 2.5 million killed 745 by your stats. Deaths per gun? .000298

OTOH, in the US in 1995 gun estimates are ~200,000,000; nearly one gun for every person. Those guns killed 21,611 by your stats. Deaths per gun? .000108.

Goodness me! The shocking reality is that the UK "kill rate" per gun was TWICE that of the US!!! Obviously, far fewer of our guns are misused. No wonder you needed the ban!

Aren't statistics fun? Juggle those numbers!


You simply ignore the fact that there has actually been an inverse relationship going on and choose your own conclusion from the many possible situations. You simply dismiss anything that doesn't fit your preconceived notion.

To whit:

Look again at those homicide numbers you posted. Note that from '95 to '99 US homicide figures steadily and significantly declined. WITHOUT any bans or buy backs.

Now look at the UK figures. Note that from '95 to '99 they are in decline UNTIL the gun ban goes into effect ('97?) and then they increase.

Ours go down without a gun ban. Yours go up after a gun ban. Post-ban, you were in an even  more "gun free" environment. But that didn't help at all; in fact, it seems it hurt.

Yet ours continue to come down.

So do more guns = safer environment? I don't know; your homicide rate went up when you had less guns. So do less guns = more dangerous environment?


 
Quote
which is why I and many others like me see no reason to possess guns.


As you so readily admit, you know next to nothing about guns. You haven't ever used them in their lawful fashion nor do you have relatives that have done so. They are simply not part of your culture. It's not suprising that you feel they have no legitimate purpose.

Here, otoh, they are an integral part of the culture. Contrary to the idea you seem to put forward, of the 220 milliion guns now estimated in the US, a very large percentage of those are used lawfully in pursuits that have long been part of our way of life.

In the last 5 years, Kansas has sold about 95,000 resident hunting licenses a year. Our male population between the ages of  17 and 64 is about 730,000. (No license required under 17 and over 64) Something like 13% of the males in that age group are likely hunters. (Sure, there's some females). "Opening Day" here is a huge social event that generates as many "family reunions" and gatherings of old friends as Thanksgiving or Christmas.

And that doesn't begin to address the huge number of folks that are involved in target shooting that never hunt at all. Rifle, pistol and shotgun; all have many, many target shooting opportunities, competitions and games available.

You may find this all easy to dismiss as it's simply not something you're familiar with. Perhaps that view may well go clear back to the times when all game in England belonged to the King and the penalties for poaching were extreme. That was one of the things our Founders made certain we wouldn't be "subject" to. Here, game belongs to the public. Even deer on a farmer's land are not "his"; they belong to the state, held in public trust.

Nonetheless, we've got lots of guns and lots of legal ways to use them that have long been part of our culture and were never limited to any "upper class".

You say your "gun free" environment accounts for the homicide rate. If that's true, why was it necessary to ban them? After all, you admit guns have "bugger all" to do with it due to the overall low number of guns? So what was gained?

Again, here in the US, we've got more but  then we've got fewer deaths per gun than you do (did? hard to figure numbers now since your number of homicides went up after the ban and the number of guns went down) and you say guns have bugger all to do with it anyway. What have we to gain? If our experience is the same as England and Australia, things will get worse.

Why? Because it goes back to the same thing numerous people have pointed out throughout the thread. It isn't the law-abiding civilians that are the problem; and they're the only ones that are going to abide by a ban.

Everyone so far has admitted the criminals will always get their guns; even Spook.

Some continue to ignore the previously posted fact that ~87% of homicides are done by known, previously arrested felons.

Yet everyone admits criminals always have access to guns.

Quote
It most certainly does. New York City is your most populous city and was once America's murder capital, if not murder capital of the world..... New York City is much safer these days, and is a showcase of correctly deployed resources of law and order.


True. Now compare it to DC, which has even more restrictive gun laws than NYC. DC still has an incredibly high rate of homicide.

So what's the difference here? It's not the availablity of guns. Anyone who wants a gun in DC or NYC has no trouble procuring one. There have been no mandatory buy backs in either place.

Yet NYC has made major improvements and DC got worse. Again, we agree that it's simply because the criminal elements in NYC cannot operate as freely as they do in DC. Gun laws have nothing to do with it; DC's gun laws were/are the toughest in the nation.

NYC is better than London now, is it not? And, without doubt, there are far more guns in NYC than London. Once again, availability of guns is a non-player. The basic necessity is crime control, reflected again in the data that ~87% of homicides are traced to previously convicted felons.

Quote
Now I have a two part question for you: Of all the handguns that were purchased in response to the Al Qa'eda atrocities of Sept. 11th, 2001, how many have been used to eliminate an al qa'eda member, and how many al qa'eda members is that?


How many were purchase in response to the Al Qa'eda atrocities?Do you have a number for that?

How many were purchased for handgun hunting?

How many were purchased for target shooting/competitive league shoots?

How many were purchased for "plinking" tin cans on a Saturday afternoon?

How many were purchased by police officers?

How many were purchased by liquor store owners?

As far as I know, though, no Al's have been shot in the US.

But what does that have to do with the purchase of handguns?

Cya tomorrow.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2002, 11:25:31 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Rude

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« Reply #194 on: November 06, 2002, 08:47:10 AM »
This pollyanna viewpoint that one can legislate the change of a persons heart, causing them to behave in a correct and moral way is a blatant example of folks just kidding themselves.

If you think that by taking away rights from those who obey the laws is a just means to an end, where does this method stop and by who's great wisdom is it metered out?