Author Topic: Madison riots  (Read 1904 times)

Offline SC-Sp00k

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« Reply #60 on: November 08, 2002, 09:38:17 AM »
Dear Laz. Thats Spook .

I believe the term that best serves justice to your outlook on life my friend is "Ignorant Bliss".

Dear friend, answer me this if you would do this limp wristed tissue user the courtesy,

Q  Do you keep a loaded, actioned firearm at home?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2002, 10:04:13 AM by SC-Sp00k »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #61 on: November 08, 2002, 11:04:37 AM »
what does "actioned" mean?   Most of my firearms are loaded.   I have about a dozen of which 8 or nine are loaded.   No need to keep the .303 loaded or the garrand.   The mini 14 is loaded.   The walther and both 44's are loaded with winchester silvertips and the the 1911 is full of ball ammo.   If "actioned" means..."one in the chamber then my revolvers (those guns with the round cylinders) are "actioned"   My semi autos (walther and 1911) both have rounds in the chamber..  Mini 14 has 30 round mag but none in the spout.   1898 winchester pump has full mag and one in spout.    1917 smith (revolver, roundy looking thing you put bullets in) has full moon clip of ball ammo (full moon clip is spring steel thingy that holds 45 auto rounds so that they can be ejected by smith ejector star.).

I would say that judging by your posts and the fact that all your "data" is how you "feel" about a place you have never even been to and an issue that you have never studied...... It is you who equates ignorance with bliss rather than I.

It is good tho that you are reading these threads as in your line of work it may be useful to you to learn a tiny bit about firearms..  Anything  else you need to know just ask.
lazs

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #62 on: November 08, 2002, 11:17:32 AM »
Oh... and all told... I have maybe 1000 or so rounds of ammo of the various calibers that I shoot.   A good portion of that is handloads that I have made myself.   I enjoy shrinking group size over factory ammo and I enjoy the savings.    When I go out to shoot... It costs me a couple of dollars for gas... It costs me about five dollars a box to shoot my 44's and 45's.   When I take people I can allow them to shoot all they like at that price.  

How much would it cost for a normal citizen of your country to go out and shoot a couple of hundred rounds of 44's or 45's (4 boxes@50 rnds per box equals 20 dollars U.S.)??

Every person that I have ever taken out shooting has thoroughly enjoyed themselves and wanted to know more about getting their own gun if they didn't allready own one.  No one has ever been injured (except from some flesh web to slide contact) during these outings.

Why would you deny us this right?  

2 millon plus people in the U.S. have concealed carry permits and to date... none of them have been involved in negligent homicides or even injuries..

why would you disarm them?
lazs

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #63 on: November 08, 2002, 01:00:03 PM »
Wow... lazs actually makes sense once in a while.

Spook,

You are becoming insulting and not making any sense.  Of course, lazs is always that way... but you are beginning to eclipse him.

And you're not listening one bit to anything people in this thread or saying... nor are you really reading what you yourself are writing.

Something I really remember about you spook.  You come to conclusions about people based on little to no real information.  You then procede to stand by that conclusion... right or wrong.  You seem to be doomed to fall into that trap for the rest of your life. So... no need to act suprised when yet another person points it out to you.

You did not say you don't trust anyone else with a firearm... just that you don't trust hardly anyone else with a firearm.   You can play the words all you want... but you've said this or something like it repeatedly in this thread.

AKDejaVu

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #64 on: November 08, 2002, 01:27:06 PM »
thanks deja.... I have seen one or two of your posts that weren't insulting and nonsensical too.
lazs

Offline Toad

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« Reply #65 on: November 08, 2002, 02:34:48 PM »
Quote
Spook: Sometimes what the people want is not what they should have


Yeah. Down with that whole Democracy thing where the people decide what they want!

Go Nanny, Go!
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline SC-Sp00k

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« Reply #66 on: November 08, 2002, 05:47:37 PM »
Deja, im not sure what opinion you think I have formed of anyone here?

Does someone who owns a lot of weapons automatically fall into the catergory of dangerous gun nut?  Of course not. Does 1 in a 100? maybe.  With guns per Capita in your country then that would seem a little risky to me.  (yes I pulled that figure out of my rear end to highlight a point as an example).

Im not insulting anyone in this thread. Ive stated that my opinions are my own and your mileage is free to vary. Im not accusing Laz or anyone else of being a wildcard with a gun.  Im stating, that these people exist and your current gun policy increases the risk of allowing these people to cause harm.

Now the question I asked Laz could apply to anyone of you supportive of your current policy.  I can ask you the same. The question was a (excuse the pun) loaded one.

You have all near exhausted yourselves telling me how utterly responsible you are with firearms.  That I, a mere Aussie living in a Dictatorship and suffering the abuses of having my freedoms taken from me, have no concept of the American people and your ways and therefore have no arguement in relation to this debate as what your telling me and the good people who look on this thread, is that your population (minus felons) can all be trusted with things that go bang in their hands.

I'm stating clearly so that there is no misinterpretation of my comments....

I have rarely heard such a pathetic load of old codswallop as some of the rubbish you are trying to expound in regard to your citizens.

Now I dont doubt that the American people are good people on the whole.  No more or less than Australians, Brits and Canucks as I have stated many times before.

You and others in this thread have waved the Flag so many times in defence of your countrymen that it borders on absurd.  You use the Flag excuse because this is a constitutional right and that because Americans can own Firearms and raise up against your own Government should it ever be deemed necessary to do so.  You use the Flag and wave it in the face of the world stating that Americans can do no wrong and our system regarding firearm ownership is a deterent to violent crime and my neighbour wont shoot me cause he knows Ill shoot him back. You use your own Flag waving and institutionised Patriotism as a self defence mechanism in defending yourselves.

Firstly let me make this point.  Now get his in your head so we're all "Crystal" on it.

Having a Gun in your hands has nothing to do with your nationality and charming disposition. Your Flag and your constitution wont mean Squat to the guy in the black balaclava creeping through your window.

Using that Gun has nothing to do with outdated rubbish bits of paper that you can frequently use as a crutch to excuse your ill gotten behaviours. It wont stop a knife. It sure as heck aint gonna stop a bullet.

Human Behaviour is not an "American" thing. Emotional response and reaction stand true for the entire human race, yours and mine and the colour of the stars and stripes on their underwear does not give them instantaneous rational response when dealing with whatever problem they may imagine themselves with.

Your killers have the same motivations mine do.  Your victims suffer the same grief mine do. Your bullets kill every bit as effectively as mine do.  Forget your outmoded paper crutch and speak in the now.


Any firearm owner that keeps a loaded weapon in their house (actioned is the weapon ready for use at the pull of the trigger Laz, my esteemed and knowledgeable gunsmith) is NOT a responsible gun owner.  It is the trait of any or all of the following catergories.

a.  Egotism
b.  Paranoid
c.  Ignorant
d. Stupid
e. All of the above.

What possible reason is there to keep a loaded firearm in the house?

You tell me, your not afraid of your neighbour.  You tell me you are not concerned whether or not he or she owns a gun.
Yet you keep one in case he comes through your door wanting a nasty with the cat or something.  You wont put your gun down because your neighbour holds one.  You wont ask him to put his down because you may be asked to do the same.  You need it in case he doesnt. He needs it incase you dont.  Define paranoia for me?...no no no...let me ;)

Quote
n. form of insanity in which patients believe themselves to be people of great importance, or think themselves persecuted by everyone. paranoiac, paranoic, n. & a. paranoid, a.


You tell me that you use it for sporting purposes only.  Then why is it loaded?  Will the rabbits and brown eyed bucks rise up, grab sharpened carrot sticks and sneak into your bedroom in the middle of the night?  No.

You keep a loaded firearm because you fear the time you may need to use it. You risk that very same firearm being used against you and your family now not only by those who come into your house already armed but now by those who come in unarmed and find themselves in a corner having been found. Or the opportunist who suddenly sees a way to increase his gain.

You put your own life at risk and that of your family.

But no, you say.  My loaded firearm is locked up safe and secure.
Nothing is safe and secure.  Military and Police magazines and armourys are broken into all the time.  The wall or floor safe that the manafacturer tells you is 100% guarenteed is only going to stop the completely uninitiated.  No firearm is 100% safe.

Toad:  Down with Cowboys. Democracy has nothing to do with plain common sense.

Deja, I fear my friend that it is you who isnt reading things properly as Ive had to repeat myself many times already. Do me a favour and read this one twice.  I will to, just to be on the safe side.

Now if you dont fall into any of the above catergories and you have a sensible reason to keep a loaded firearm that I am not aware of, please tell our readers what it is. 2 things are not acceptable valid reasons of common sense.

1. Your Flag  (which is unlikely to crawl under your bed)
2. Your Constitution (which will protect you as much as a wet banana)

Do tell..

and Deja, no offence but one last thing.

Anyone who trusts their lives in the hands of the guy who lives 5 houses down and is only seen watering his yard on Sundays is nothing but a complete and utter moron.  Not saying thats you mate. That goes for anyone.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2002, 06:01:49 PM by SC-Sp00k »

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #67 on: November 08, 2002, 06:26:12 PM »
Excellent, excellent post, Spook.  In particular, I liked this:
Quote
You tell me that you use it for sporting purposes only. Then why is it loaded?

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #68 on: November 08, 2002, 11:57:19 PM »
Spook,

You displayed your assumptions again about me in particular and the American public in general in your posts. Please do not deign to speak for me or what I believe. You really don't have it right.

Your last post really hit the nail on the head in what I was trying to iterate to you earlier about your misconception of the American society and in particular the constitution. Here it is regarded with a bit of, shall we say "reverance" in that it was the documant that set us apart from many of the "modern democracies". I meant exactly what I said about the paternalism of the government you expressed in your posts about being protected. Passing a law to remove property from those who have not misused it and have shown no obvious intentions of criminal misuse is a very paternalistic approach. I prefer my government not tell me that it knows better than I how to live my life in detail.

The mandate "from the people" is very real here. It is the basis for our legal government. It states simply that the citizens (those who have not relinquished their rights by commision of a felony) are represented by those in government, not ruled by them.

The following lines from your post were particularly telling in your opinion of the legal document that explains the limitations on our government.   Using that Gun has nothing to do with outdated rubbish bits of paper that you can frequently use as a crutch to excuse your ill gotten behaviours. It wont stop a knife. It sure as heck aint gonna stop a bullet.

That "outdated  rubbish bits of paper" are the legal basis for our government. I suppose you would think that freedom of speech, religion are out dated too. They are in the first ammendments as well. Another part of that "rubbish" is the freedom from self incrimination and from unreasonable search and siezure. These are not rights granted by our government. They are RESTRICTIONS placed UPON our government. They are sanctions placed to insure the goverment we have remains a representative of the people (citizens) and not a keeper of them. The fact that they are listed as ammendment and are additions to the constitution indicate how important the "founding fathers" felt they were. They understood that a government cannot grant ritghts but they take them away. As a representative of that same government I was requiired to take classes to insure I understood what those restrictions were and how to respect them. The denial of liberty was meant to refer to the awsome powers of arrest ( I thought you would understand) not the ownership of firearms. Anyone can be taught how to take an individual in custody. It is much more difficult to teach WHEN to take a person under arrest.

As I stated in my post there are those whose actions have shown they cannot be trusted and as such they lost some constitutional rights. That is part of the penalty for being a convicted felon here. You do not have to be convicted of a firearm crime to lose the right to have a firearm. They had to show that they couldn't be trusted and suffered the loss of those liberties. To have my property confiscated upon penalty of loss of my liberty for something I had nothing to do with is not just. I ask you again. When is the punishment of the many for the transgressions of the few warranted?

Another section of your post was this. Having a Gun in your hands has nothing to do with your nationality and charming disposition. Your Flag and your constitution wont mean Squat to the guy in the black balaclava creeping through your window. That constitution means I have the means to deal with the guy in the black balaclava creeping through my window. Since this individual is obviously ignoring the law by breaking into my house I have to assume he wouldn't hesitate to break another by assaulting or trying to kill me. Because the constition affirms my right to defend myself from the felonioius assult, I can do so with an effective tool, not just a hurried phone call to the Police who will certainly arrive in time to record what has already happened.

A wonderful bit of irony is this paragraph you posted. You tell me, your not afraid of your neighbour. You tell me you are not concerned whether or not he or she owns a gun.
Yet you keep one in case he comes through your door wanting a nasty with the cat or something. You wont put your gun down because your neighbour holds one. You wont ask him to put his down because you may be asked to do the same. You need it in case he doesnt. He needs it incase you dont. Define paranoia for me?...no no no...let me  
Please tell me who is more paranoid, the one who desires to have a firearm or the one who feels their neigbors shouldn't be allowed to have one even though they have not committed any offense or that they MIGHT sometime in the future do something wrong? They might also commit a traffic offense, do we take everyones vehicles away? Do we take every privately owned plane away because some cowards used one to kill thousands of people?

The last thing I'll pull out of your post was the arrogant classification of those who disagree with your opinion.
Any firearm owner that keeps a loaded weapon in their house (actioned is the weapon ready for use at the pull of the trigger Laz, my esteemed and knowledgeable gunsmith) is NOT a responsible gun owner. It is the trait of any or all of the following catergories.

a. Egotism
b. Paranoid
c. Ignorant
d. Stupid
e. All of the above.


Since I keep loaded firearm, as I have since I was first commisioned an Officer, I assume you feel I suffer from one of the above traits. I find that to be rather arrogant of you. I think you place a quite shortsighted (myopic to the level of Mr. Magoo I think) view of the country here with these categories of labels. Do you take your firearm home with you or do you lock it at the station since you have no need for a loaded actioned firearm? After all the bad men / women wouldn't do any harm when you're not working would they?
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Offline SC-Sp00k

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« Reply #69 on: November 09, 2002, 06:50:38 AM »
Hear, O Jupiter and you too, Juno---Romulus also, and all the celestial, terrestrial, and infernal gods! Give us ear! I call you to witness that this nation (insert one of your choice) is unjust, and has acted contrary to right. And as for us, we will consult thereon with our elders in our homeland, as to how we may obtain our rights.

The above was part of a dedicated speech and traditional to how Rome formally declared War on its transgressors.  There was also the ritual spear throwing at the end of the speech but it was to long to include it all.

Where is Rome now?

A name on a Pizza box and home for the old guy in the bullet proof bubble.

How we hold these things dear.

Dont even get me started on Religon Mav :)

I ask you again. When is the punishment of the many for the transgressions of the few warranted?

The difference between our cultures in this debate and the answer to your question which has answered itself.

Punishment.

We do not consider it a punishment.

Do you take your firearm home with you or do you lock it at the station since you have no need for a loaded actioned firearm? After all the bad men / women wouldn't do any harm when you're not working would they?

Good question.  My firearm remains at work, actioned and loaded.
The only time it comes home is when I come with it at the hip.  Its stay is short and uneventful.  I have no wish for my boy to blow his or my head off.  

Anybody wishing to come into my home uninvited will meet other suprises. Not the less of which, the one that bears lots of teeth.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2002, 07:00:20 AM by SC-Sp00k »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #70 on: November 09, 2002, 09:57:16 AM »
spook... as usual you have produced a great wall of words full of "feeling" and your opinons while totaly ignoring reality...  I don't think that there is one bit of content to either of your last posts.  although... there are some glaring observations you make that show how paranoid and stupid and cowardly you are.

In the U.S.  all responsible gun owners have been taught first thing (it is even on the basic firearms ceertificate tests) that.... all guns are to be treated as if they were loaded.  Never point a gun at anything you don't wish to destroy.   With so many firearms I find it better to go by this rule.  I also find that the guns I may use in self defense are much handier if they are loaded.   I hope that you never get old enough that you wish you had a firearm and..... didn't.

You also assume that we only have firearms for sporting purpose.  That is not true.   as many have stated we have them for deterance and protection and any of a number of reasons... the reasons are really unimportant... the right to keep and bear them is.

Our constitution is a piece of meaningless rag?   Really?   well I do get the impression that uk types want a daddy to oversee their lives and tell them what freedoms they deem 'safe'  

You feel that being of sound body and able to keep large dogs that ...welll that is a good reason to take away everyone elses rights.... What about the old and infirm?   Apartment dwellers?  You seem exceedingly paranoiid and selfish to me.   And... I don't belive that 1 in 100 of my neigbors is a danger to me... not even 1 in 1000.   I believe that criminals are a danger to me.   If my neighbor happens to be a criminal then for sure he wil be armed.. I would like some parity.

You and beetle can't get it hrough yur head that you are not advocating a little inconvience in a sport.   I have used my guns in sport and defense.   I have filed the police report after (as maverick so eloquently asserts) and everything went fine.   No one was hurt... least of all me or mine.     It was all over before the operator took us off hold.

all in all... I guess most of your attitude is attributable to a very bad police mentality of "them against us"   That is why we retire our police so young... everyuone get's cynical when faced with overloads of poor human behaviour.... You should do everyone a favor and retire.  Another aspect is fawning dependence on your government to tell you what is right and wrong... A lack of independance that we are not yet ready to embrace in this country.

I hope that, coupled with your lack of content explains why so many here find your views moronic and alien.

best of luck to you.
lazs

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #71 on: November 09, 2002, 10:38:15 AM »
I find myself wondering what kind of dogs you have, Spook. Hopefully not anything potentially dangerous, like Rottweilers or Pitt Bulls. I wouldn't wanna hafta go pulling stats on the numbers of dogs turning on their owners or their kids. Then again, I kinda doubt a chihuahua with a spike collar is really much of a deterrent, eh? ;)

FWIW I own two handguns and a rifle. Not an arsenal, but enough for me.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #72 on: November 09, 2002, 10:39:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
thanks deja.... I have seen one or two of your posts that weren't insulting and nonsensical too.
lazs


Your wit has few peers! :D

Offline SC-Sp00k

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« Reply #73 on: November 09, 2002, 05:33:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
spook... as usual you have produced a great wall of words full of "feeling" and your opinons while totaly ignoring reality...  I don't think that there is one bit of content to either of your last posts.  although... there are some glaring observations you make that show how paranoid and stupid and cowardly you are.

I was of the opinion you were ignoring all reasonable content anyway. I thought id delve into the realm of fantasy for a bit and explore your world :)

In the U.S.  all responsible gun owners have been taught first thing (it is even on the basic firearms ceertificate tests) that.... all guns are to be treated as if they were loaded.  Never point a gun at anything you don't wish to destroy.   With so many firearms I find it better to go by this rule.  I also find that the guns I may use in self defense are much handier if they are loaded.   I hope that you never get old enough that you wish you had a firearm and..... didn't.

Correct me if im wrong ( I know you shall) But isnt one of the basic fundamental principles alongside those you advocate above, NOT to keep a loaded firearm ?   LOL.  Are you ignoring some to highlight that you know the others?  I cant believe you are silly enough to use that in an arguement with me and think you could just slide it on by.

You need to read all my posts again. Ive owned a lifetimes supply of firearms in the past.  Im not missing anything.

You also assume that we only have firearms for sporting purpose.  That is not true.   as many have stated we have them for deterance and protection and any of a number of reasons... the reasons are really unimportant... the right to keep and bear them is.

Whats important is an entire culture armed to the teeth in the guise of self defence from an threat they claim isnt there and claiming thats the answer because looking for an alternative is to hard.

You repeatedly state that your not frightened by your neighbour. Well the Crims are your neighbours to.  And the "Normals" commit violent crimes and suffer moments of idiocy and take opportunitys to. Thats how we ensure we always have a healthy supply of Crims.  You are putting firearms in their hands also.

Our constitution is a piece of meaningless rag?   Really?   well I do get the impression that uk types want a daddy to oversee their lives and tell them what freedoms they deem 'safe'

From a Nation that breeds bullets in the guise of one day possibly rising up against their own daddy, thats a bit rich isnt it? LOL.

You feel that being of sound body and able to keep large dogs that ...welll that is a good reason to take away everyone elses rights.... What about the old and infirm?   Apartment dwellers?  You seem exceedingly paranoiid and selfish to me.   And... I don't belive that 1 in 100 of my neigbors is a danger to me... not even 1 in 1000.   I believe that criminals are a danger to me.   If my neighbor happens to be a criminal then for sure he wil be armed.. I would like some parity.

Responsibilty for Dog ownership is not really all that different to responsible Gun ownership.  Both have simple basic rules you follow to ensure as much safety as possible.

The difference between you and I however, is your apparent need to disobey those which dont suit you.

Apartment dwellers rank alongside the elderly? I dont understand.

You and beetle can't get it hrough yur head that you are not advocating a little inconvience in a sport.   I have used my guns in sport and defense.   I have filed the police report after (as maverick so eloquently asserts) and everything went fine.   No one was hurt... least of all me or mine.     It was all over before the operator took us off hold.

I have used mine in defence to. Yet here I am, ownerless at home and still kicking despite a lifetime of being threatened without a firearm in my possession as opposed to those rare time when I did.

You overlook the simplest of principles. If someone wanted you dead.  Deliberately set out to see the end of you. You could wrap yourself in an Abrahams Tank with Bandoliers of Ammo littering the ground around you and you would still end up dead.

Where as I am required, as was Mav, to put myself in harms way at times and to deal with lifes scumbags as a daily event.  9.99 % of the time, you and the many thousands life you will encounter or be threatened by these people, maybe once in your entire life. Thats the difference you fail to comprehend when taking me to task about this issue.

You dont need a gun Laz.

all in all... I guess most of your attitude is attributable to a very bad police mentality of "them against us"   That is why we retire our police so young... everyuone get's cynical when faced with overloads of poor human behaviour.... You should do everyone a favor and retire.  Another aspect is fawning dependence on your government to tell you what is right and wrong... A lack of independance that we are not yet ready to embrace in this country.

Taking a wild stab here. But I assume your Police retire so young (if that is the case) because the chances of them surviving with every swinging d*ck holding onto an M14 gets a little less with each growing day!

Your right on one respect.  I should retire.  That little house by the lake with the pier running out to a small runabout.  That school of rainbow trout that paces its beat 10 feet out from the end of the jetty.  The fading orange sunset, the sound of crickets chirping on a warm balmy night and icy droplets from a cold beer stubby falling onto my chin as I lift up another in salute to the fish.
That sounds pretty damn good to me.

Until the idiot across the bay shooting bunnies with his manly Gun, plugs me in the head after falling crossing a fence, cause he carries it loaded everywhere he goes.

I hope that, coupled with your lack of content explains why so many here find your views moronic and alien.

Until you find my spaceship, you have no business calling me an alien.  Its not a tail, its a growth !

best of luck to you.

and to you Laz.


Kieran  I answered you in the above :)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2002, 05:39:50 PM by SC-Sp00k »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #74 on: November 09, 2002, 08:10:34 PM »
spook... there is obviously a cultural difference here.   No where was I taught that a gun should be stored unloaded.   There is no need to.

Again.. I see very little content to what yuou say... You don't feel you need firearms (yet) so yu would deny them to others.   I find this kind of behavior reprehensible and cowardly..  Your rational that your neighbor may shoot you by accident while hunting bunnies holds no weight... Not here anyway.

Our cops retire at 3% per year at 50.   That means that an officer that joins the force at 20 and retires at 50 will get 90% of his salary... Hardly worth going to work for the 10%.

Your telling me that I don't need a gun is ludicrous.. You have no idea who does or dosen't.  

The apartment coment was in regard to your keeping large dogs... you seem to feel that this is good enough for anyone... A lot of people can't keep large dogs..

As for me not being able to defend against someone who wants to kill me?  Waaaa???  No one is trying to kill me except if I were to be in the way.   At that point I certainly would be better off being armed.

The deterent is the thing tho...  I feel that my life and goods are safer because criminals are frieghtened of being shot by homeowners or concealed carry people... You really out to read John Lott's book if you wish to actually know what you are talking about.   I somehow feel that you will be unable to read it with all those facts and all and no real "feeling"..  
lazs