Author Topic: 190 evasive  (Read 714 times)

Offline Gabber88

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190 evasive
« on: November 16, 2002, 04:01:47 PM »
How i can evase the other plane in the game with the Fw190A?

Offline Ecliptik

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190 evasive
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2002, 04:17:49 PM »
I fly the 190A-5 quite a bit, and it has one of the best roll rates in the game, which makes scissoring a favourite evasive move.   For most planes, scissoring is only really effective when the attacker is coming in behind you with considerably higher speed.   In the A-5, and most of the other 190's however, as long as you aren't too slow, scissoring works well because the attacker won't be able to change direction as quickly as you, and thus won't be able to follow your movements, and thus, with throttle control, you can force the overshoot on even an equal-speed attacker because you bleed speed more quickly.

Offline Gabber88

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190 evasive
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2002, 05:04:47 AM »
what is scissor?
the 190A5 is for B&Z or manuver fight?

Offline Ecliptik

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190 evasive
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2002, 12:36:21 PM »
The A-5 is best used as an aggressive BnZ fighter, where its great snap roll allows it to track last-minute evasives by the target much better than most other aircraft.  The A-5 is the most maneuverable 190, which may enable you to surprise people who think you're a D-9, but it is still by no means a good turner at low speed, and ideally you want to stay above about 250 TAS (true airspeed, indicated by the red line on the gauge).  If you do get tangled in a furball, try to use the vertical as the 190 seems to perform better there than in flat-turning manuevers.   I've been very successful in rope-a-dope manuevers with it.

The scissors is an aggressive evasive manuever where the aim is not to disengage and escape but rather to turn the tables on the attacker and go on the offensive.  It consists of banking back and forth in quick succession, trying to get out of synch with your pursuer and eventually gain angles and ideally arrive on his six.   There are many variations on it, but the idea is represented here:

« Last Edit: November 17, 2002, 12:39:01 PM by Ecliptik »

Offline Kweassa

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190 evasive
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2002, 01:39:51 AM »
There are a few things to be considered when taking evasive action in the Fw190. Among its contemporaries, the Fw190 is almost always has a decisive edge over the other in high speed maneuvering. For instance, the A-5 has much better handling at high speeds than the Spitfire MkIX or Spitfire MkV. The USAAF fighters P-47s and P-51s are well matched in this category, but they lack in pure maneuverability compared to the Spitfires, thus, it is pretty much a fair shot when one has to face them in low/mid speed situations.

 In short, any plane that turns better than the Fw190 can be outmaneuvered at high speeds, and any plane that is faster than the Fw190 can be fought with traditional, tight dogfighting techniques.

 However, in the MA environment where the majority of fighters are from 1944~1945, even the Fw190D-9 lacks in a pure dogfight/maneuvering contest. For instance, one of the most common fighters in the MA, La-7, is superior in almost every aspect against the D-9 except high alt maximum speed.

 Therefore, when going into evasive action, the 190 pilot has to judge carefully whether his objective is to evade and run to safety, or to evade and engage. The "traditional scissors" as depicted in Ecliptik's pic is not a very good choice for the Fw190, because as you can see, traditional scissors maneuvering has a lot to do with low speed handling and turning ability, not just roll speeds. You may outroll planes like Spitfires and force a temporary overshoot, but in the end, as the speed drops lower, the Spitfire will start gaining decisive and irrecoverable advantages over the 190.

 Thus, in most cases, the tactics in the Fw190 is simple: try not to show your rear end to anyone, and if you do, use rolls to evade and escape, not evade and engage.

 A good example of such is utilizing short series of rolls at spiral dive. Start shallow turns with the nose pitch under the horizon. As you catch up speed, you will begin to feel the G forces causing partial grey outs at the border of your vision.

 If an enemy is following and gaining on you in your spiral dive, it means he is turning with you at an even faster speed. As he closes in, tighten your turn. When you feel the enemy is about to open fire, tighten the turn with one last pull and roll 180 degrees opposite and dive away.

 The chances are, the enemy behind you cannot see your change of directions because of the black out, or, cannot follow your roll due to high speed. If the enemy somehow manages to roll with you, keep the dive going and roll 180 degrees again. Sucker him into a "chicken" game diving to deck, rolling out of the way 180 degrees every time the enemy seems to have a gun solution on you. Not many pilots can follow the 190 doing this and saddle up behind. Most of the times they give up the chase in fear of crashing, or losing excessive altitude and becoming a target of another plane nearby. Then, you dive away, extend to safety, and plan your next move.

 Such is one example how the evasive rolls can be utilized.

Offline Duedel

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190 evasive
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2002, 02:44:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
If an enemy is following and gaining on you in your spiral dive, it means he is turning with you at an even faster speed. As he closes in, tighten your turn. When you feel the enemy is about to open fire, tighten the turn with one last pull and roll 180 degrees opposite and dive away.


Very well said Kweassa. U can also try to make a short barrel role at the end of the tightening turn to end up right behind the enemy. This often works very well for me in my beloved 190A5.

Offline Gabber88

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190 evasive
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2002, 03:10:07 AM »
Ok...
At which distance i set his convergence (190A5) and is best with all 4 cannon or only the MG151/20?

Offline hogenbor

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190 evasive
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2002, 03:37:10 AM »
I fly the A5 rather often and find it the most challenging of my regular rides.

I don't hold much with scissors, I understand the basics but I think I lack the experience. And besides, in my three months of AH I very rarely overshoot. Having said this, I think Kweassa's post says it all. Roll rate works best when employed defensively. The A5 also climbs very well and when it is fast it can really dance.

What I don't like are the cannon. Mg151 cannons (main armament) lack the killing power of the Hispano cannon found on British fighters and the A5 doesn't really allow for a good tracking shot, at least not when you want to live. Furthermore ballistics suck so I really have to adjust my aim to compensate.

To answer you question, convergence of 450 works best for me in the A5. Leave the extra cannon, the are of an older model and the ballistics and killing power are even worse than that of Mg151's. Besides that, they carry only 55 rounds of ammo each, after that it's dead weight.

Offline Duedel

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190 evasive
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2002, 04:48:46 AM »
What hogenbor said. Dont use the extra cannons (MG FF). They only add weight and drag.
U can set ur convergence for the cannons even to 350 cause u'll have to shoot at short distances caused by the bad ballistics of the 20mm MG 151.
The MG's are mounted above the engine so set the convergence to 650 -if u'll ever use them ;)
Only fire one kind of cannon at the time cause if fired both (MG and 20mm) it's really hard to get used to the ballistics of the cannons.

One additional tip: burn ur AFT fuel tank first.

Offline Duedel

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190 evasive
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2002, 04:55:24 AM »
One thing i forgot. Try the Macchi 205 too!
It's my favorite ride at the moment (and i think it's the most beautifull plane).
Both the 190A5 and the Veltro are IMO the planes that really give u the most fun cause u can use them as fairly good Boom and Zoomers (not as good as 190A8) against the good turners (N1K and Spit) or u can use them as turn fighters against the Boom and Zoomers (109G, P47, P51, 190D9).

Offline Innominate

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190 evasive
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2002, 05:00:33 AM »
How the hell do you just fire one set of cannons at a time?

Offline Kweassa

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190 evasive
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2002, 05:37:55 AM »
Inn, the Fw190A-5 has the 2x MG151/20 option.

 But in reality, this configuration was for jabo 190s, with outerboard MG-FFs removed + underbelly bomb racks(these racks become standard equipment for 190s with the Fw190A-8).

 Some people note that they prefer 2x 20mm option, but frankly in my case I rarely notice any difference between the 2x 20mm and 4x 20mm options.

 As Hristo analyzed before, MG-FFs, though slow firing with little ammo load, seemingly worthless.. is substantial firepower - 4 cannons and 2 cannons is certainly different. In my case, risking 5~6% loss in climb rates or speed, maneuverability  is better than doing away with the outboard cannons totally.

Offline Innominate

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190 evasive
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2002, 06:47:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Inn, the Fw190A-5 has the 2x MG151/20 option.
...
 As Hristo analyzed before, MG-FFs, though slow firing with little ammo load, seemingly worthless.. is substantial firepower - 4 cannons and 2 cannons is certainly different. In my case, risking 5~6% loss in climb rates or speed, maneuverability  is better than doing away with the outboard cannons totally.


Ahh, was hoping someone had a trick to fire the mg-ff's seperatly.  I have to agree with you on the MG-FF's.  At long range, the MG-FF's are worthless, but for those close-range snapshots, it's worth having them.  I've never been able to feel the difference in performance between the two options, except in hitting power.

Deudel's tip is a bit more important than he makes it out to be.  Burning the aft fuel tank first is absolutly essential, especially if you plan on turning at all.  Burning the forward tank first(Like the fuel autoselector does) will leave the plane seeming heavily loaded.

Offline Duedel

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190 evasive
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2002, 08:45:51 AM »
Does anyone have test data (climb, top speed) when using MG FF or not?

Offline Innominate

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190 evasive
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2002, 09:16:12 AM »
I know the MG-FF's have no effect on top speed.  The affects on accelleration, climb, turning ability, etc are all fairly negligable IMO.