At a Critical Stage in the Game

[popeye]

The E state of a plane in AH is a combination of the speed and altitude (and weight) of the plane. You can judge the other guy's speed by the rate of change of the icon range indicator.  If you are slow and the range is changing rapidly, he is fast...etc.  His relative altitude is obvious.  His plane type tells you how well it will retain E in a turn or zoom, and how well it will climb, dive, roll, accelerate, run, see, and turn, and how dangerous his guns are.

Knowing the other guy's plane type and E state tells you his options, and yours.  Of course, if he turns out to be Drex....you may not have any options.  

[Innominate]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Or try John Boyd's Aerial Attack Study, if you can find it that is.  If Shaw's book is the fighter pilot's bible, Boyd's book is the Holy Grail and extremely hard to find.


Ack-Ack

Any idea where one might be able to find it?

[Mooja]

But you can measure the energy in a plane in many more ways than ways than just kinetic and potential.  There's rotational energy, probably some magnetic energy... heat, chemical, mechanical, ...etc.  It seems what we're really talking about here is momentum and it's common sense that a falling object (discounting other forces) will gain momentum and a rising object will lose momentum.  A child knows this.  So why all this business about E-states which is at best an ambiguous term.  I think this is why I never went into the military.  Take a simple concept like a falling rock and assign an unnecessary term to it in order to add ambiguity and complexity.  Bah!.

BTW, one thing I have noticed in the AH community is that in general the class of people here is above par compared to other MMOLG's.  I've played a few others and I can say without a doubt that the people here are definitely more patient and constructive when it comes to helping out others.  Thanks for all the help fellas.

[Innominate]

Originally posted by Mooja
But you can measure the energy in a plane in many more ways than ways than just kinetic and potential.  There's rotational energy, probably some magnetic energy... heat, chemical, mechanical, ...etc.  

BTW, one thing I have noticed in the AH community is that in general the class of people here is above par compared to other MMOLG's.  I've played a few others and I can say without a doubt that the people here are definitely more patient and constructive when it comes to helping out others.  Thanks for all the help fellas.

There are different types of energy yes, but it's all irrelavent.  Speed and altitude are the most relavent by far.  The heat contained in your plane isn't going to get you away from that spitfire.

As for the community, I suspect a lot of it has to do with the average age, which in AH is sickeningly high.  The average age in a game can determine quite well the attitude of the game's community.

[dtango]

Mooja:

Innominate is right.  The only relevant energy in these air combat discussions are kinetic and potential.

Physics Stuff
=========
Momentum and energy are not the same thing.  You can see it in the mathematical relationships:

*Momentum = mass x velocity
*Force = mass x acceleration = rate of change of momentum
*Work = force x distance

Energy is the ability to do work (abilty to move an object some distance):
*Kinetic Energy = 1/2 mass x velocity^2
*Potential Energy = weight x height

Simply put momentum is a measure of inertia of a mass while energy is a measure of the ability for a force to move an object.

That's my simplistic way of explaining it.  Perhaps some other folks versed in physics can explain it better.  The confusing part is that both are velocity dependent in the case of momentum and kinetic energy.

So when we speak of maneuvering an aircraft we refer to the measure of ability to use force to move the aircraft (energy) - and not the inertia of the mass of the aircraft(momentum).

And yes I realize none of this tells you anything about applying the concept of energy in air combat .  It's too late right now to explain anymore (I need to go to bed!).  Perhaps another fine pilot in the AH community can help you make the linkage between the academics of energy to the application of the energy concept.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[Shane]

Originally posted by dtango
Mooja:
Physics Stuff
=========
Momentum and energy are not the same thing.  You can see it in the mathematical relationships:

*Momentum = mass x velocity
*Force = mass x acceleration = rate of change of momentum
*Work = force x distance

Energy is the ability to do work (abilty to move an object some distance):
*Kinetic Energy = 1/2 mass x velocity^2
*Potential Energy = weight x height

Simply put momentum is a measure of inertia of a mass while energy is a measure of the ability for a force to move an object.

That's my simplistic way of explaining it.  Perhaps some other folks versed in physics can explain it better.  The confusing part is that both are velocity dependent in the case of momentum and kinetic energy.

So when we speak of maneuvering an aircraft we refer to the measure of ability to use force to move the aircraft (energy) - and not the inertia of the mass of the aircraft(momentum).

And yes I realize none of this tells you anything about applying the concept of energy in air combat .  It's too late right now to explain anymore (I need to go to bed!).  Perhaps another fine pilot in the AH community can help you make the linkage between the academics of energy to the application of the energy concept.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

brain hurt!!  pull stick and shoot stuff!!

[maddog]

simple rules;

work the edges of a furball... know where other planes are..

stay high and fast...

don't turn fight with a spit etc.

Joystick recomendation is x45...best bang for buck.....

[Mooja]

I understand the physics involved.  I don't understand the nomenclature.  My point was that the term "energy state" is ambiguous & misleading.  As are the terms "gain angles", "merge" as well as many other terms commonly used in this community.  

For instance take the term "pull into him".  This is a widely used term taken to mean that you should turn in a direction with the intention of heading towards your opponent.  The term "pull" is used because in most cases you "pull" back on the flight stick to initiate a turn.  However if the opponent is slightly below and in front of you you would actually "push into him" to accomplish your goal.  Have you ever heard someone say they pushed into their opponent?  These are the things that don't make sense.  If you were to try to teach someone to drive a car or program a computer or do anything else outside of the military with the same kind of communication lapses that are used in ACM you would very quickly be deemed inconsequential and subsequently ignored.

Anyway, last night I was in a La7 and got outrun by a Temp, a P51, and some kind of 190 in three back to back sorties.  That's just not right either.

[Innominate]

Originally posted by Mooja
I understand the physics involved.  I don't understand the nomenclature.  My point was that the term "energy state" is ambiguous & misleading.  As are the terms "gain angles", "merge" as well as many other terms commonly used in this community.  

 However if the opponent is slightly below and in front of you you would actually "push into him" to accomplish your goal.

Anyway, last night I was in a La7 and got outrun by a Temp, a P51, and some kind of 190 in three back to back sorties.  That's just not right either.

The nomenclature is specific to air combat.  Take a look at the falcon 3.0 manual link, as it explains a lot.  Energy state is very specific, and means nothing more than your speed and altitude in this context.  Not knowing what the terms mean doesnt make them the slighest bit ambiguous.

"Gain angles" means essentially to get your nose closer to a firing position.(Read the link below for more idetails)
The "merge" is the opening move in a fight, where two planes going in different directions merge into each other.

You would almost NEVER want to "push" into somene.  A plane's wing is designed to lift upwards, not push down.  To turn towards someone below your lift vector, it's almost always(except for small adjustments) better to roll your lift vector onto him, and then pull back on the stick
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/f3manual/bfm1.shtml

As for the la7, it may be fast, but a plane with an altitude advantage can easily dive and catch it.  A tempest can catch an la7 in level flight.

[Mooja]

Saying the energy state of a flying plane is restricted to its kinetic and potential energy is like saying all humans have one arm (and implicitly assume the listener knows you have to cut off the other arm to arrive at that fact).  The words "energy" and "state" have explicit meanings in the english language and when used together they mean more than kinetic and potential energy.  The ACM community has chosen to redefine their meaning for their specific purpose and could've done just as well to call "energy state" "gobbly gook" instead because neither one involves kinetic and potential energy alone.  

Also if we're turning in a circle then anytime you're gaining angles you must also be losing angles from somewhere else.  Why isn't it called losing angles then?  Ambiguity.

This topic reminds me of how California wanted to start teaching ebonics in schools a few years back.  That way kids would know that juice wasn't something you drank but instead it was some quantity of money.  And fly meant you were popular, a dime is an attractive young woman with questionable morals ...etc.

[Innominate]

Mooja,
Do you complain that people having garage sales won't sell thier garages?

[popeye]

Mooja,

Air combat and aeronautics have their own jargon, just as computers, automobiles, and nearly everything else does.  People are trying to help you by explaining the jargon, and how it relates to AH.

[Mooja]

Yeah, why is that about garage sales too?

All I know if I walked into military flight school expecting to learn things about how to not get killed and instead all I got was a modified ebonics lesson i'd very quickly begin re-assessing my survival options.  You'd think they'd want to be a little more professional about such things.  I guess it must work though cause here we are.  Like they say, dance with the one that brung ya. 8)

[Innominate]

Mooja, is english your first language?  If not, then I can understand.  If it is I'm going to assume you're just trolling, and don't actually want help.

[Mooja]

Well my initial post was meant to try to help the thread originator by relating my own experiences and frustrations and how I dealt with them being new to this myself.  Part of that frustration (which I think i've overcome but still baffles me why it's necessary) was the English-to-English translations that are required when attempting to glean any information out of the various literature available on the topic.  From there it just seemed to blossom somehow.  Now I fear it looks like it's beginning to become a pure and simple hijack and perhaps we should maybe get back on topic.