Author Topic: Is this freedom?  (Read 3115 times)

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #75 on: January 02, 2003, 08:19:50 AM »
Toad summed it up.. there is no rebutal a smoker can give to toads reasoning.  

Now.. as for smoking in public places... places paid for by the people... these smoking laws are voted on in many cases..  If they weren't.... how do you smokers suppose the vote would go?

face it... people have hated smelling your stinky ciggs (and mine back when) for years... what you now see is backlash and most non smokers are actually enjoying your indignant response..
lazs

Offline Curval

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« Reply #76 on: January 02, 2003, 08:37:45 AM »
Lazs,

You and Mr. Toad seem to be the authority on what is a nanny law and what isn't.

Could we get a list or something so that we can have a consensus.  That way you can't keep moving the line between what is a nanny law and what isn't, to suit your arguments.

I suppose we could just say.."Any law passed in England to protect its citizens IS a nanny law....all laws passed in the US are proper and correct and do not constitute nannying.":rolleyes:
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #77 on: January 02, 2003, 08:52:20 AM »
Noooo.... what is being said is that... shooting people that are near you randomly is bad..  blowing smoke at people around you randomly is bad.  

Keep your bullets out of inocent peoples bodies and keep your smoke out of inocent peoples bodies.

and......  a lot of the smoking laws were voted on.   Care to see how a vote would go on smoking?   firearms in the U.S. is a constitutional gurantee and... for good reason..

What you are seeing is a backlash by the PEOPLE against smokers..  

If you could smoke ciggarettes without creating smoke then I would be first up to defend your right to do so in a public place...   There are no laws against chewing tobacco... just spitting.   It's not the ciggarettes or the tobacco that is the issue..  it is the smoke that is being inflicted on people who don't wish to be annoyed or, harmed, by it.   I am not sensitive to it but I understand that some people, especially those with resperatory problems, are badly affected.   I would prefer not to smell smoke but I recognize that in a smokers car or home I have no say.   I don't believe the government should either.

I am also against tobacco bans to "save lives" or to "save money" or whatever excuse a nanny government gives.   I don't believe that the rest of us benifiet any more by this than by seatbelt or helmet laws.
lazs

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #78 on: January 02, 2003, 08:59:40 AM »
Quote
.."Any law passed in England to protect its citizens IS a nanny law....all laws passed in the US are proper and correct and do not constitute nannying."


Yes, that pretty much works for me. :D

Offline Wlfgng

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« Reply #79 on: January 02, 2003, 09:18:04 AM »
lazs brings up a good point.  
our smoking-ban was voted on by the people...
approved by a huge margin.

The workers in the now smoke-free restaurants are happy as well.  In fact, some of the restaurant and bar owners are saying it's easier to keep their wait staff on.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #80 on: January 02, 2003, 09:23:46 AM »
Curval, the line isn't moving. Smoking hasn't been prohibited for any "nanny" reason like saving the smokers' lives or some such.

The no smoking laws.. usually voted on as noted... merely offer the non-smokers the freedom not to smoke. Smokers can STILL smoke. They just can't smoke where it would FORCE non-smokers to smoke as well.

Repeating: Smokers are free to smoke all they like. They just can't inflict it upon non-smokers in confined areas.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #81 on: January 02, 2003, 09:27:24 AM »
face it smokers.... the non smokers are taking delight in watching you suffer.. they are because they put up with your crap for so many years.   They really never did like having their eyes water and their clothes smell and their candy dishes used for ash trays or holes burned in everything or you passed out on the couch with a ciggarette in your mouth (ooops.. that was me).

They think you are a rude piece or toejam and they are glad you are upset... it's really that simple.
lazs

Offline Curval

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« Reply #82 on: January 02, 2003, 09:27:51 AM »
What happened to smoking and non-smoking sections?

Nannying is the blanket abolition of smoking in restaurants and bars...which is happening in New York according to what I read.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Toad

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« Reply #83 on: January 02, 2003, 09:52:29 AM »
Nope. Nannying would be BANNING SMOKING.

Who's being "nannied" in NYC? Generally, "nannying" as we've all referred to it here in the OC is when government does something to protect you from yourself. At least that's my interpretation.

The non-smokers aren't being protected from themselves.

The smokers aren't being protected from themselves either. They can still smoke all they like.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Wlfgng

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« Reply #84 on: January 02, 2003, 10:21:43 AM »
oh you're gonna love this...
the "Pueblo Taliban"...

in some places the smoking ban isn't gonna work...
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E53%257E1084609%257E,00.html

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #85 on: January 02, 2003, 10:28:56 AM »
It's illegal to walk in public buildings barefoot because of the possibility to spread infectious germs. It is not illegal to be barefoot elsewhere.

It's against state health code in most states to return to a salad bar with the same plate filled the first time, because of the possibility of spreading infectious germs. You can return for seconds, thirds, fourths, whatever at home.

It's against state health code in most states to enter a public pool without showering first. You can enter your pool at home right after rolling in cow pies, if you like.

You can carry a concealed gun in public only with a special permit. You can own all the guns you like at home.

See a pattern?

Offline JBA

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« Reply #86 on: January 02, 2003, 11:13:23 AM »
Copyright 1998 THE WASHINGTON TIMES
"Pseudoscience Going Up in Smoke"
by Michael Fumento

It was the farce that launched a thousand bans. In 1993, the EPA released a study ranking passive smoking at the top of its carcinogen pecking order. It did so based on a combined analysis (meta-analysis) of 11 American studies. The media quickly fell into line, with headlines blaring: "Passive Smoking Kills Thousands," and editorials demanding: "Ban Hazardous Smoking; Report Shows It's a Killer."

Suddenly, smokers found themselves ranked below child-molesting lepers. The crusade against smoking in public places assumed ludicrous dimensions, culminating with President Clinton trying to ban it not just in federal buildings but anywhere near them.

Yet since the EPA's hour of glory, it's been battling not just (predictably enough) the tobacco companies, but also the Congressional Research Service (CRS), and myriad scientists and science journalists. It ignored them all, but has now run into an unmoveable object in the form of a federal judge, who ruled that the agency's report ignored accepted scientific and statistical practices in making its risk assessment.

This has no direct effect on legislation, but may prompt repeals of some legislation and hold off the implementation of new anti-smoking laws. Although the EPA's report had more holes than a piece of Swiss cheese under assault by a ravenous mouse, its greatest weakness was its refusal to use the gold standard in epidemiology, the 95 percent confidence interval. This simply means there are only 5 chances in 100 that the conlcusion came about simply by chance, even if the study itself was done correctly.

Curiously, the EPA decided to use a 90 percent level, effectively doubling the likelihood of getting its result by sheer luck of the draw. Why would it do such a strange thing? Yup. Because its results weren't signficant at the 95 percent level. Essentially, it moved the goal post to the three-yard line because the football had fallen two yards short of a touchdown. There's a technical scientific term for this kind of action--dishonesty.

The EPA report was scientifically at or below the level of anything ever put out by the Tobacco Institute. It was also a harbinger of EPA games to come. For example, when it comes to radon, the agency has simply ignored the overwhelming number of household epidemiological studies showing no harm from the gas at low levels, instead choosing to extrapolate down from men exposed to massive amounts of radon each day for years in uranium mines.

In promulgating new air pollution regulations last year, again the EPA ignored the majority of epidemiological studies showing no connection between harm and the pollutants in question, instead relying on a few studies by "advocacy scientists" (one a former EPA employee).

As to passive smoking, two more meta-analyses have appeared since the EPA's. One was conducted on behalf of the World Health Organization (WHO) in seven counties over seven years. When it appeared, the tobacco industry claimed it supported their position, and WHO squealed like a pig going to slaughter. "Passive smoking does cause lung cancer--Do not let them fool you.," blared its press release.

No, it was WHO trying to fool you. Its study also found no statistical significance at a 95 percent level. So the press release just ignored the whole issue of significance altogether.

The third meta-analysis, published in the British Medical Journal (BMJ), found slight statistical significance when 48 studies were combined. Looked at separately, though, only seven showed significant excesses of lung cancer, meaning 41 did not.

Further, the combined increased risk was merely 24 percent, also called a "relative risk" of 1.24.

Such tiny relative risks are generally considered meaningless, given the myriad pitfalls in epidemiological studies. "As a general rule of thumb," says the editor of the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine, Marcia Angell, "we are looking for a relative risk of 3 or more" before accepting a paper for publication. "My basic rule is if the relative risk isn't at least 3 or 4, forget it, says Robert Temple, director of drug evaluation at the Food and Drug Administration.

Explains the National Cancer Institute: "Relative risks of less than 2 are considered small and are usually difficult to interpret. Such increases may be due to chance, statistical bias, or the effect of confounding factors that are sometimes not evident."

The main exception to that rule comes when the study is extremely large, but such was not the case with the BMJ analysis. The studies showing excess disease comprised a mere 1,388 persons. By contrast, a recent study implicating obesity as a cause of early death contained more than 320,000 subjects.

So where does this leave us? Do we know passive smoking doesn't cause lung cancer? No. But we know that either it does not or that if it does the risk is so tiny as to be unmeasureable. Does this mean passive smoke poses no health risks? No. It makes sense it would aggravate athsma and other breathing problems, if nothing else. Does it mean that just because smokers aren't murdering other people, they're not still engaging in a nasty, expensive habit that greatly increases their own chance of sickness and premature death? Definitely not.

Ultimately, the EPA study tells us a lot less about passive smoking than it does about the basic dishonesty of the agency in charge of protecting our environmental health.
"They effect the march of freedom with their flash drives.....and I use mine for porn. Viva La Revolution!". .ZetaNine  03/06/08
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Offline Curval

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« Reply #87 on: January 02, 2003, 11:36:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Nope. Nannying would be BANNING SMOKING.


Then the issue of guns in England is not nannying either.  You can own a gun, you just have to join a club and keep it there.  They are not BANNED.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Wlfgng

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« Reply #88 on: January 02, 2003, 11:45:18 AM »
if you are a member of a gun club (as you describe) is the club the only place you can fire your weapon ?

Offline Curval

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« Reply #89 on: January 02, 2003, 11:48:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wlfgng
if you are a member of a gun club (as you describe) is the club the only place you can fire your weapon ?


I assume so...it certainly is the case here.

If we could shoot guns anywhere we wanted to sooner or later we'd have a bunch of dead Canadians lying about the island...you can't "swing a dead cat" on this island without hitting a Canadian.:D
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain