Author Topic: The Atomic bomb...why we used it.. (Read 10129 times)

funkedup · « **Reply #15 on:** January 07, 2003, 11:21:53 PM »

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There were plans by Germany to build a ultra long range aircraft similar to the flying wing you guys(US) built in the 50's. The plans were discovered and i'd assume had a lot to do with your development of that aircraft.

Nope, the Northrop flying wing bombers (including B-2) all trace their lineage back to the Northrop N1M of 1940.

hawk220 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 07, 2003, 11:23:00 PM »

Curval:

"Dropping the bombs actually saved many more Japanese than were killed."

Thank you Curval for bringing this up.. it is the most overlooked fact regarding dropping the A-bombs.

funkedup · « **Reply #17 on:** January 07, 2003, 11:24:35 PM »

Here's a nice site on Northrop flying wings:
http://www.invisible-defenders.org/programs/b2/beginning.htm

capt. apathy · « **Reply #18 on:** January 07, 2003, 11:39:09 PM »

apparently 1 bomb was NOT enough. if the second wasn't required then they would have surendered after the first.

Toad · « **Reply #19 on:** January 07, 2003, 11:49:03 PM »

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Originally posted by ramzey
For many ppls situation with iraq looks similar like with japan in 40's

Make country desperated, show as evil, push them to attack us, win war and liberate.

ramzey

Ok, I'm confused.

How is Iraq similar to Japan in the 1940's?

Japan suffered in the world-wide recession after 1929, just like every other nation.

In 1931, her army invaded and occupied the whole of Manchuria.

On July 7th, 1937, Japanese troops clashed in maneuvers with Chinese troops at the Marco Polo Bridge, ten miles west of Peking. Three weeks later, the Japanese invaded in large numbers.

So exactly how did the rest of the world.. or the US.. make Japan desperate?

For pity's sake; Japan invaded and conquered Manchria in 1931! The prosecuted and undeclared war against China from 1937 on!

No one made the desperate; they were agressors.

No one made them "look evil"; they managed that all by themselves, particulary after "the rape of Nanking".

No one pushed them to attack anyone either. They managed to formulate and prosecute their attacks without any real pressure from the outside. Manchuria and China by themselves show that.

So, I'm confused.

funkedup · « **Reply #20 on:** January 08, 2003, 12:52:45 AM »

Yes it reminds me of Poland's behavior, pushing the Germans into war in 1939.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #21 on:** January 08, 2003, 12:57:16 AM »

ramzey:

You statements are idiotic.

GRUNHERZ

SaburoS · « **Reply #22 on:** January 08, 2003, 02:14:08 AM »

I will add some points about the thinking of the Japanese people of the Americans during the war (especialy near the end). My mother (born in '33) and grandmother (born around 1910) were living in Tokyo at the time. They really thought that the Americans were devils (my mom laughs as she tells it as they all expected the Americans to actually have tiny horns growing out of their heads). The Japanese citizenry was given a long bamboo pikes to fight to the death of those "devil" American invaders. They were hardly "enthusiastic" about fighting to their sure death against such devils. The average Japanese citizen was very fearful of dying just as those citizens from America, Germany, England, etc. We can propagandize about how the Japanese non-military citizens would cause about a million US military casualties, but I find it exagerated. Would there be more or less casualties if both bombs weren't dropped? I don't know. Wish I did. The fact is both bombs were dropped and Japan gave its unconditional surrender. Warfare has a way of bringing out the barbarity in people. That's just the way it is.
Both my grandmother and mother are still alive. If anyone has any specific questions for me to ask, I'll be happy to forward them. At least you'll get some answers from those that actually lived through the war rather than from a text book.

Dowding (Work) · « **Reply #23 on:** January 08, 2003, 02:41:40 AM »

Hazed - aren't you forgetting the Delta bombers of the RAF - the glorious Avro Vulcan et al? It wasn't just the US that had flying wing planes in the 50s.

The atomic bomb drops were as defensible as the Dresden bombings. Both were done in the hope that the will to fight of both nations would be broken, and hence save Allied lives. I don't have a problem with either, morally.

Iraq has no parallels with WW2. We know Hitler was a nutjob with a program to develop nuclear weapons.

ramzey · « **Reply #24 on:** January 08, 2003, 05:28:00 AM »

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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
ramzey:

You statements are idiotic.

GRUNHERZ

damm u right!!!!!

Curval · « **Reply #25 on:** January 08, 2003, 06:23:39 AM »

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Originally posted by SaburoS
I will add some points about the thinking of the Japanese people of the Americans during the war (especialy near the end). My mother (born in '33) and grandmother (born around 1910) were living in Tokyo at the time. They really thought that the Americans were devils (my mom laughs as she tells it as they all expected the Americans to actually have tiny horns growing out of their heads). The Japanese citizenry was given a long bamboo pikes to fight to the death of those "devil" American invaders. They were hardly "enthusiastic" about fighting to their sure death against such devils. The average Japanese citizen was very fearful of dying just as those citizens from America, Germany, England, etc. We can propagandize about how the Japanese non-military citizens would cause about a million US military casualties, but I find it exagerated. Would there be more or less casualties if both bombs weren't dropped? I don't know. Wish I did. The fact is both bombs were dropped and Japan gave its unconditional surrender. Warfare has a way of bringing out the barbarity in people. That's just the way it is.
Both my grandmother and mother are still alive. If anyone has any specific questions for me to ask, I'll be happy to forward them. At least you'll get some answers from those that actually lived through the war rather than from a text book.

A million casulaties inflicted by civilians sounds inflated to me too. I believe the two bombs caused about 30-40 thousand casualties each (very rough figures)...lets call it an even 100,000 with radiation casulaties added to the figure.

Wouldn't you agree that more than 100,000 Japanese civilians and military personel would have died in an invasion of Japan?
I said that dropping the bombs saved more Japanese...I did not distinguish between civilian or military casulaties.

SaburoS, would your parents have actually fought with those bamboo spears, or would they have surrendered? I'm not being judgemental, I'm just curious. Would they have committed suicide rather than be taken prisoner? Again, no judgement, just curious. As mentioned civilian Japanese on Saipan and at Iwo Jima jumped from cliff rather than surrender to the American "devils". Wouldn't this have also happened in Japan itself? I would say yes, but I would like to hear what your parents say about that. It is possible to me that the more sopisticated civilians in the major population centres would not do so, but what about the rural population?

It was estimated that the US would have suffered approximately 300,000 casulaties in the invasion of Japan. Just think about how the survivors would have been feeling about the people that caused those casulaties? I think "trigger happy" would be a gross understatement. This is not to say that they would have committed wholesale slaughter of civilians...just that they would have reacted with swift and extreme violence against any resistance once they landed, even if it were a bunch of civilians waving bamboo spears.

Curval · « **Reply #26 on:** January 08, 2003, 06:32:06 AM »

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Originally posted by Daff
I can to some extend understand the use of the first bomb on Hiroshima (But wasnt there a better target available? Military installations in Hiroshima were minor). 2nd one, no. The Japanese generals were swaying and a longer wait could probably have led to a surrender.
Question is, how much did the Russian invasion in Manchuari affect the decision to force the issue and bomb Nagasaki?
I highly recommend visiting the memorial peace museum in Hiroshima.

Daff

The Russian invasion of Manchuria may have been a factor, but even more of a factor was convincing the Japanese that the US had more than one bomb.

Innominate · « **Reply #27 on:** January 08, 2003, 06:45:06 AM »

The amount of damage caused by each atomic bomb was staggering. Considering it was only one bomb. The mass bombing raids were capable of inflicting as much damage as a nuclear weapon.

The japanese didn't even give in because of the damage from the two bombs. They gave in because the US bluffed, implying that there were many more ready to go.

A few hundred thousand casualties on one side vs a few million casualties on both is an easy decision. A horrible situation, but an easy decision to make.

Naso · « **Reply #28 on:** January 08, 2003, 06:58:50 AM »

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Originally posted by Jack55
"Having found the bomb we have used it. We have used it against those who attacked us without warning at Pearl Harbor, against those who have starved and beaten and executed American prisoners of war, against those who have abandoned all pretense of obeying international laws of warfare. We have used it in order to shorten the agony of war, in order to save the lives of thousands and thousands of young Americans. We shall continue to use it until we completely destroy Japan's power to make war. Only a Japanese surrender will stop us."

Harry Truman
33rd President of the United States

Gents, you can stir the pot as you like, but Mr. Truman already declared WHY!

All the other considerations are'nt history, just different propaganda agendas.

P.S.
Dont forget the blockade that US raise against Japan before the war.

P.P.S.
If you are so naive to believe that the incoming war against IRAQ it's a war "against evil", "it's us or them", "they will nuke us" ....

... well, I pity you.

Daff · « **Reply #29 on:** January 08, 2003, 07:11:58 AM »

Approx 200.000 people died from the effects of the bomb in Hiroshima, with 140.000 dead at the end of 1945. 70.000 were outright killed in Nagasaki, with another 70.000 injured, many who later died from radiation poisoning.
Survivors from both cities suffered from after effect many years after. (Which was also somewhat compounded by the Japanese goverment refusing to acknowledge that some of these symptoms existed) http://www.pcf.city.hiroshima.jp/peacesite/English/Stage1/1-5/1-5-6E.html

"just that they would have reacted with swift and extreme violence against any resistance once they landed, even if it were a bunch of civilians waving bamboo spears."

Yeah..the propaganda was very effective on both sides, eh?

Daff