Author Topic: The Atomic bomb...why we used it..  (Read 10103 times)

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #60 on: January 08, 2003, 08:03:07 PM »
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Japan was taking turns contacting Russia to use them as a middle man between US and Japan after Hiroshima.


Japan was attempting to arrange a deal for a cease-fire without having to surrender.

Maybe instead of taking turns contacting Russia, they should have been contacting us in regards to their surrender.

Offline Dago

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« Reply #61 on: January 08, 2003, 11:32:53 PM »
I watched a documentary on the Bataan Death March a couple of times.  Remember that one?  Ya know, where they marched the prisoners of war without food and water endlessly, killing them for sport?
Slow down, fall down, or just be an unlucky chosen one and suffer the bayonet in the gut, or have your head chopped off for no reason other than the sadistic amusement of the Japanese soldiers guarding the prisoners.

Anyway, a survivor of the death march, after describing the inhuman brutality, after describing how his friends were killed said "I am not sorry we (the US) dropped two atomic bombs on Japan, I wish we had dropped 10 of the bombs on them".

Yes, dropping the bombs was the right thing to do. That act saved untold numbers in the end, both to the Americans who would have had to attack Japan, and to the civilian population who would have died as a result of that fighting.

Let those who wring their hands about the bombs study history, study the aggression and inhuman brutality the Japanese visited on so many millions.  I bet if it were possible to compare numbers, more civilians of other nations and prisoners of war were killed in individual acts of cruelty from the Japanese soldiers than died as a result of the two bombs.

dago
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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #62 on: January 09, 2003, 12:08:40 AM »
SEPT 12TH DIA CELL PHONE INTERCEPT TRANSCRIPT

TEXT: PHONE CALL BY RED ARMY FACTION LEADER JAPAN TO OSAMA BIN LADEN:

'OSAMA.. YOU NOT GET 'HISTORY CHANNEL' IN RAGLAND? 50 YEARS AGO WE LAUNCHED 400 PLANES ON PEAL HARBOR.. DROPPED 2,000 BOMBS, KILLED 2,500 AMERICANS. THEY COME TO JAPAN 3 YEARS LATER, DROPPED TWO diddlyING BOMBS, NOW WE ALL HAVE LITTLE DICKS. YOU HEAR ME, OSAMA??'

World Peace.

or Else.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #63 on: January 09, 2003, 12:48:10 AM »
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Nothing but assumptions... OTOH, the Japanese men who were essentially drafted into the military as Kamikazee pilots were willing to do their job.

The ones who didn't because Japan surrendered were grateful to be alive, but I don't think you actually understand the situation in Japan in 1940-1945... or the Japanese people's resolve.

Only the Emporer's word would lead them to surrender.
-SW


Sure, we all are giving our assumptions, but I am also giving you the mindset of two individuals that happened to live there during that time. My assumptions are based on what they told me. Understand the fire bombings of the major Japanese cities (esp Tokyo) were very demoralizing. My mother saw first hand how an elderly woman (prob in her 70-80's) died in agony because a bit of napalm got stuck on her back. Burned to death. No one could save her.
I'll give you another mind set of a 17 year old Kamikaze pilot (The war ended before he actually went on a Kamikaze mission (thank goodness). He said although he thought it was exciting about joining the Naval Air Service, many of his fellow young cadets didn't have the same enthusiasm. The others would weep at night. The others didn't like being there at all. He couldn't understand how they could be sad, he was excited. He grew up in a very well to do family and he hated the restrictions he was under. He finally felt free. I'll continue this in better detail if you wish.

Let's say that it was another major power that had the Bomb and no one else. Would they have used it on other nations they were at war with? I'd say yes.
If they had heavy bombers, Germany would bomb England and the USSR. Japan would bomb the US. England would bomb Germany. The US would bomb Germany if the US had it earlier.
That's war. War is dirty. War is cruel. That's just the way it is, has been, and will be.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline Naso

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« Reply #64 on: January 09, 2003, 04:10:31 AM »
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Originally posted by Toad
Let's talk about this "blockade" and where it fits in the timeline.

Shalll we start with 1931 and the invasion/conquest of Manchuria, or start with the Japanese war against China in 1937.

OK. What "blockade" are you talking about.


Mr. Toad, I am pointing to the existing tension state between the 2 nations, not expressing judgement on who was right or wrong.

I believe that talking about history it's a non emotional matter, if you put in emotion and/or nationalism, the risk it's to lose the facts.

And the fact is that there was plenty of tension between US and Japan, well before the attack.

So Pearl H. was'nt a foul non unjustified coward attack on a plenty neutral nation.

Was simply a calculated try to put a big blow on the "soon or later" declared enemy, to gain an initial advantage.
History showed that was a huge mistake, and Japan paid plenty for that mistake.

In the same vision the use of the A-bomb was a calculated (like the european bombing campaign) try to break the will of continue the war by the local "public opinion", and history showed this choise had the intended results.

On a final note, about propaganda:

The USA developed during the WW2 the best propaganda machine ever seen in history (even better of the German one), and that machine has been improved and improved, as lot of posters here show plenty. :p

Offline Leslie

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« Reply #65 on: January 09, 2003, 04:10:37 AM »
My Dad was a ham radio operator in 1941, and learned about the Pearl Harbor attack by Morse Code.  My Mom remembers him telling her about it before the radio/newspaper broadcasted it to the public.

He was stationed in Norfolk, VA soon after that, as a member of the Signal Corps (radar repair)...and worked for Ratheon after that.  He said the word "radar"was forbidden to mention and top secret.  He repaired radar units on carriers, battleships (in Norfolk)and B-25 Mitchells based out of Florida.  I remember him telling me the B-25 went on a submarine patrol near Puerto Rico.  They scared him sh*tless doing a dive, then would fly along the treetops, cutting green with the props.  Said they were crazy.:D

Anyway, he had fairly high confidential clearance (for airplanes), and the news of an atomic bomb was very surprising to him and his military superiors, (though my Dad was not in the Army or Navy, but Signal Corps.)  They knew nothing about it either.

After the war (1946), he described a UFO call he and an AF Major investigated.  They drove a command car up in the country to a farmer's field, and discovered a weather balloon which had been lost.  He personally knew an Air Force officer involved with the Hangar 18 affair, which I believe was the Roswell incident.  Told me the guy saw something unexplainable, that they were moving something on a flatbed truck into the hangar at the Ohio base, McArthur Field?  Help me out here, y'all.  Whichever base hangar 18 was on.  And that there were strange goings on around there.  Makes you wonder, doesn't it.

My Chemistry teacher in High School was part of the Manhatten Project at Oakridge, TN.  She was an old lady by then, and everyone loved her because she was fair, and also crazy....in the crazy science teacher respect.  Every year she would entertain the class by dropping a chunk of sodium in a beaker of water, simulating a loud explosion and mushroom cloud.  It would practically smoke out a fourth of the school.  Everyone loved it.





My Dad said the Japanese were formidible and dangerous enemies.  Everyone felt that way, and everyone was worried.  The atomic bomb was used to end the war.  Many of us posting on this BBS, might not be here now if our fathers had died in the war.  

One of my Japanese friends visiting from Japan (who speaks practically no English) came over to my house one time in the past, and as soon as he saw the B-29 models hanging from my ceiling, he became upset...to the point I felt embarassed my friends purposely pointed them out to him.  I had to calm him down by getting pissed at my buddies.  And they deserved it too.  We all then drove to Pensacola and went to the beach, and had a great time.

The war with Japan is over.  I think everybody pretty much feels the same way about the atomic bomb.  Had to be done.



Les

Offline Naso

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« Reply #66 on: January 09, 2003, 04:13:25 AM »
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Originally posted by SaburoS
That's war. War is dirty. War is cruel. That's just the way it is, has been, and will be.


SaburoS.

Offline Naso

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« Reply #67 on: January 09, 2003, 04:15:06 AM »
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Originally posted by Tumor
Naivety is a beautiful thing.


....Bet you wouldn't bother with soap on a roap in a prison shower either would you.


It's this a menace?

"Agree with me or I kill you!!"

Land of freedom.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #68 on: January 09, 2003, 05:19:38 AM »
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Originally posted by Naso
Mr. Toad, I am pointing to the existing tension state between the 2 nations, not expressing judgement on who was right or wrong.

I believe that talking about history it's a non emotional matter,  


Yes, and there's always a time, place or incident where that tension begins. There's a conscious decision to do something that causes the tension.

Unemotionally, Japan is the nation that caused tension in Asia. There is no doubt, no confusion over this. It isn't propaganda either.

So, once again, with respect to the horrors visited upon them......

"If you don't START nothing, won't BE nothing."

They chose the path; they caused their own destruction.

And that is HISTORY, not propaganda.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Dowding (Work)

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« Reply #69 on: January 09, 2003, 05:31:21 AM »
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The atomic attacks helped end the war. Dresden did not, and was nothing more that a vengence raid.


That's rubbish. The intent was still the same; to break the fighting spirit of the target people and the soldiers at the front - in the case of Germany, to save Allied lives that would be lost on the road to Berlin.

That is exactly what the atomic attacks were desinged to do. They were just more devastating.

You also overlook the fact that Dresden was a transportation link to the Eastern Front and loads of troops were passing through there.

Tell me, how do you compare the Tokyo and other Jap city firebomb attacks to Dresden?

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Atleast 135 000, some estimate up to a quarter of a milion people died in Dresden mostlly refugees from the eastern front. More than in both of the atomic attacks.


That is just plain wrong. Re-read this thread. Daff already posted the figures; 200,000 people died because of Hiroshima alone, and 70,000 were killed at Nagasaki when the bomb detonated. You also overlook the effects of radiation poisoning.

I still believe you can't morally justify the atomic attacks without morally justifying Dresden.

Also, I'd like to point out Toad's phrase. "Don't start nothing, won't be nothing."
« Last Edit: January 09, 2003, 05:40:07 AM by Dowding (Work) »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #70 on: January 09, 2003, 05:39:40 AM »
It probably all seemed so simple and so easy by the end of September in 1939. Just one month to take Poland;what a lark, eh? This war stuff is so easy and so relatively painless.

Funny the things that happen once the dogs of war have been slipped though.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Naso

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« Reply #71 on: January 09, 2003, 05:59:40 AM »
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Originally posted by Toad
Yes, and there's always a time, place or incident where that tension begins. There's a conscious decision to do something that causes the tension.

Unemotionally, Japan is the nation that caused tension in Asia. There is no doubt, no confusion over this. It isn't propaganda either.

So, once again, with respect to the horrors visited upon them......

"If you don't START nothing, won't BE nothing."

They chose the path; they caused their own destruction.

And that is HISTORY, not propaganda.


Sure, Japan had a imperialistic attitude, and actively occupied land that was in the aim of other imperialistic powers.

No doubt they started the war.

The one that try to eat the all the food on the table it's asking for trouble by the other people sitting at the same table.

It's the vision that the "innocent and neutral" USA were opposing for humanitarian reasons, that disturb me.

There's no frigging nation then and now, that act for "humanitarian reasons", they can let you buy this, and if you are dumb enough you can believe it, but, as you already some time ago agreed, there's always a lot of more cynic and trivial (dont know if correct word) reasons behind.

Japan was not the nation that caused the tension, the tension was already present, since the western powers were "coldwar"-ing (lol a new term) since 19 century around the remnants of the imperial China.

The problem was that Japan was not part of the club and was not invited to the table.
Plus, Japan used a very aggressive way to sit down, and this build up more tension.
The situation was more complex that you seem to believe, and always is.
Pretending that a nation must have the same interests of the USA or if it's in contrast is "STARTING" something it's a little nationalistic, dont you believe?
The Japan was trying to join the club, forcefully, as all the club members already made in the past, but misjudged the importance to not have in common with the club the race and the basic culture.

In short, the concept i am trying to espress in my poor english is that "If you don't START nothing, won't BE nothing." it's a wrong statement, applied to story, in the game of the world history we can go back and back in time, since we can arrive to the first group of neolitic men that decided to stole the resources of the near other tribe.

THEY started it.

The question is "what is the best option we have, for the maximun advantage?" (in a completely cynical way).

Truman choise was the A-bomb.

Offline Leslie

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« Reply #72 on: January 09, 2003, 06:12:54 AM »
Dresden was involved with the war industry.   Small cottage industries were established in houses in residential areas.  Dresden was an art community, with many civilians living there.  Many of the civilians were, however, involved with war production material, including gyroscopes for the V-2 rocket.  Dresden was a military target.  Though, this fact has only been revealed within the past 10 years.

I almost got in an argument with my Geography professor about this in class one time.  Got tired about hearing it.



Les



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Offline Tumor

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« Reply #73 on: January 09, 2003, 06:13:39 AM »
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Originally posted by Naso


The question is "what is the best option we have, for the maximun advantage?" (in a completely cynical way).

Truman choise was the A-bomb.


I'm damn glad the choice was the A-bomb.  Had there been an invasion of Japan... who's to say any number of us would be here today.  Consider the number of expected casualties.  How many folks here today had (have) father's and Grandfathers who my have been one of those casualties?

At the end of the day... it's sad the A-bomb was used but, better them dead than us dead.  It's a hard attitude and obviously open for criticism but if the U.S. is attacked, I'd just as soon see thousands of the enemy dead than one single solitary American life.
"Dogfighting is useless"  :Erich Hartmann

Offline Toad

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« Reply #74 on: January 09, 2003, 06:34:19 AM »
Excuse it away all you like. Rationalize however you like.

The Japanese invaded and conquered Manchuria in 1931 and then they prosecuted an undeclared war against China in 1937.

They "started" it.

Saying "they had no other option" and "other countries made them do it" is pure BS. They CHOSE to compete with arms rather than with trade.

US trade embargoes against Japan came only AFTER the Japanese invasion of China in 1937. The US was trading with them up until that time and was their major supplier of oil and ore I think.

So, acting in our own "best interest" we stopped selling oil and ore to Japan... perhaps our best customer? Why would we do that? What was the catalyst?

The catalyst was Japan's invasion of China. Rather than fight Japan we attempted to use denial of trade as a "peaceful" means to deter their aggression against China.

The world continues to use "economic sanctions" in this manner today and you don't have to look very far to find examples. Today, this tactic is considered better than going to war I believe. (Whether it actually works is another discussion. Suffice it to say it did not work on Japan in the late 1930's.)


It's funny.

On one hand people clamor that the world should have "stopped" Nazi Germany sooner or "stopped" Japanese agression sooner.

But when they had the chance....

March 16th 1935 Hitler violates Treaty of Versailles by introducing military conscription

March 7th 1935 German troops occupy the Rhineland

October 15th 1938 German troops occupy the Sudetenland...

with all of these things against the Treaty of Versailles, with all the "major powers" in the League of Nations (except, of course, the US which after the madness of WWI became decidely isolationist) nothing was "stopped" at all, by either economic sanctions or force of arms. And this is when Germany was militarily still weak. A time when a concerted effort could well have stopped them without the catclysm of World War. Waiting certainly didn't improve the situation, did it?

Same with Japanese attacks against Manchuira and China.

The drift to war was inevitable because folks were able to explain away and otherwise ignore or "justify" these incidents.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2003, 06:37:43 AM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!