Elevator authority

[dtango]

Just wanted to point out again what Mako was mentioning about elevator authority.  It's a non-factor since for most of the a/c we fly in AH we can easily generate enough stick force to change the aoa well beyond critical aoa (beyond max turn performance and the flight envelope).

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[MANDOBLE]

Originally posted by AKIron
OK, I can see that. But now that you've got the nose down don't you need the elevator to pull it back up to complete the 180 that Curly first mentioned?

AKIron, once you have forced that "stall", your nose is pointing to the ground, so, you have already performed the 180 turn in the vertical. This is a hammerhead, and it involves little elevator authority. When your nose is pointing to the ground, you'll need to use a bit of all your controls just to center the pursuer.

BTW, you can also perform a wingover, not so drastical as a hammerhead, and you will perform the same 180 vertical turn with little use of elevators.

In both maneouvers, hammerhead and wingover, rudder and aileron control are far more important than elevators.

Elevator authority really takes place when you have an excess of lift, for example, performing the same 180 verticall turn but diving instead of climbing. That is, diving near vertically and then pulling out as hard as you can in a vertical climb.

[AKIron]

Guess I misunderstood. Was thinking the 180 applied to beginning of the manuver rather than from a vertical nose position.

[Kanth]

Originally posted by AKIron
 But now that you've got the nose down don't you need the elevator to pull it back up to complete the 180 that Curly first mentioned?

Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Elevator authority really takes place when you have an excess of lift, for example, ............................. ...............

That is, diving near vertically and then pulling out as hard as you can in a vertical climb.

Same thing. (except Iron, the beginning of the 180 doesn't start at the nosedown position it starts at the inverted position moves thru the nose down and back to the level flight position to be completed (the S in split S))

point being that the more airflow passing along the elevator the more it's going to be of use.

stall = not real usefull

dive for a bit then pull back = useful.

and unless it's in a stall, it's the elevator that will be moving the nose vertically.

[Toad]

I think Otis is the elevator authority here in the US.

[Blue Mako]

Originally posted by AKcurly
Mako, roll rate has nothing to do with the question I asked. I thought I made that clear --- guess not. The question was AFTER the 180 degree roll, which plane will permit you to pull though quickest.

I'm not saying it's smart or the correct thing to do, but that was the question.

curly

Curly, your original post was:

Suppose you have a bad guy about 1.5 behind you.  Ok, you begin a gradual climbing turn and around 175-200 mph (depending on your a/c and the rate of closure of the pursuing a/c), you roll 180 degrees and pull hard.

Of all the planes in Aces High, which plane gets your nose through the 180 degree fastest?

curly

Sorry if I misunderstood, thought you were talking about reversing the direction of your turn by rolling through 180 degrees and then pulling back on the stick.  In any event, my answer is unchanged from:

A turnfighter will always turn through 180 degrees faster than an E fighter given the same starting conditions.

[SaburoS]

If I am flying inverted and need to finish the Split-S, my choice is to chop throttle, drop down a notch or two of flaps, and pull hard on the Zeke's stick for the fastest reversal in that example. I am not counting the actual roll to invert the plane, just to pull a downward quickest, tightest 180 using elevator only input.