Rummy takes swallows his foot.

[funkedup]

Funk, i'm sorry Mike but you are off on a tangent here.

OK I will assume you intend to contradict me.

People have different reasons for joining military. Not all, and i would venture to say that most people DO NOT join for patriotic reasons, rather for ECONOMICAL ones, especially in peace time. Those who vounteered when the country called are a special case, offcouse, but i wouldn't demean anyone's ultimate sacrifice, regardless of their reasons for joining or willingness to do so.
They did have a choice to go to canada and say "screw this". They didn't. They went and died. They were heros.

You didn't contradict me.  All I said is that some of the draftees were like what Rummy described.  I give a guy points for not going to Canada, but if he went over to Vietnam and shot his officer in the back (this happened frequently), then that kind of trumps the not-going-to-Canada don't you think?

[weazel]

I served, and there's lessons you learn in the military...it's called respect and loyalty to and for your fellow soldier.

Obviously those lessons didn't register with Rumsfeld...and your sitting in the college dorm pulling bongs wouldn't teach you either.

Volunteer or conscript makes no difference.

As far as Vietnam stories go I'm pretty sure I have heard a wider range of them than you and from multiple sources.

When I enlisted Vietnam had been over for only 4 years, nearly every senior NCO I served with did a tour in Vietnam, many of them began their military career as conscripts.

I can't recall any of them describing it like your fathers experience, and all of them called foul at the tripe Hollywood puts out as representative of that war.

Why don't you go over to Check Six UBB and ask easymo what he thinks about Rumsfelds comments?

[funkedup]

Originally posted by weazel
I served, and there's lessons you learn in the military...it's called respect and loyalty to and for your fellow soldier.

Obviously those lessons didn't register with Rumsfeld...and your sitting in the college dorm pulling bongs wouldn't teach you either.

Volunteer or conscript makes no difference.

As far as Vietnam stories go I'm pretty sure I have heard a wider range of them than you and from multiple sources.

When I enlisted Vietnam had been over for only 4 years, nearly every senior NCO I served with did a tour in Vietnam, many of them began their military career as conscripts.

I can't recall any of them describing it like your fathers experience, and all of them called foul at the tripe Hollywood puts out as representative of that war.

Why don't you go over to Check Six UBB and ask easymo what he thinks about Rumsfelds comments?

That's a pretty good answer.
I did pull bongs in the dorm room.  I did not inhale of course.
I'm guessing that with those NCO's you knew a lot more vets than I do.  Maybe my dad was just in a lousy unit.
I concur that Hollywood's Vietnam is uniformly crappy, and vets seem to agree.
And I agree that Easymo's opinion on this would carry a lot of weight.
Too bad it took us that far down the page to communicate that well.

[Kanth]

The thing is, it's not WW2 and it's Not Vietnam it's NOW
and now we have alot more technology than we had back then and need competant willing skilled soldiers to do precision work.

  It's just like the educational thread, you want people who can do the job, who are willing to lean, who will give 100%.

 As I said, there is no shortage of people there isn't a world war and there is no reason to draft.

[Kanth]

I just watched the little flick, no info was really provided but some music and a dancing caricature..

Parts of sentences taken out of context don't do anything for me.

I like to be fully informed in context before I make any decisons about anyone.

[Nash]

Here's a really stupid and simpleton-like analogy (apologies).

The minister presiding over a funeral of a guy who was a bit of a drunk, a bit of an amazinhunk.... does not say "This man was a drunk and an amazinhunk".

Yeah, on the whole, the draftees aren't going to be as effective as the volunteers (though I think it's one hell of a stretch to characterize them as fragging inmates with guns). These men were forced to fight, they went (they had no choice), and scores of them died.

For the (freaking) Secretary of Defence to say that these people were of "no value" is pretty sick. Afterall, it was exactly his ilk that drafted them and signed their death certificates in the very first place.

In Rumsfeld's defence, I think it was a gaffe. He was responding technically to what's clearly an emotionally charged issue. But Jesus... These sorts of misfires are really starting to pile on top of one another.

[medicboy]

The worthless puke that is trying to restart the draft is doing it because in a vol. military there is a larger representation of black people than in the general population.  He thinks this is some kind of ploy by the goverment agenst black people, so to be fair he wants to draft everybody.  I am sorry but this has nothing to do with serving your country, the war on terror, or national pride.  This is about some love muffin with a twisted view and a "the world hates me because I'm black"  mentality.  

There are more ways to serve your country than being in the military.  I have been a paramedic for over 10 years, have treated thousands of people and have saved more than a few lives.  I have treated more gsw's (gun shot wounds)  than most military medics.  Have flown thousand's of miles in medivac helo's working on critical patients in some of the most turbulant flying conditions you can imagine.   Even was the first grond ambulance on the scene when that same helo crashed 5 miles from my station, killing the pilot (a 24 yr mil vet) and criticaly injuring the nurse and medic.  All of whome were good friends.  I was there when they pulled the pilots body out of the lake and helped carry him to the mortuary van, draped in an American flag.  I have done cpr on dead babies, worked on a 12 yr old girl that shot herself in the head because she was sick and tired of being raped by her step dad, and have seen more dead people than I care to ever remember.

Don't go saying you have to serve in the military to serve this country.  I have skills that I would gladly put to use for my country if needed, but I'll be damned if I am going to be pulled away from my wife and baby boy to serve in a military that does not need me, just to fill some quotta on race.  But like that guy said on the US Navy movie playing in the previews of movies "I am not going to let someone come over here and tell my family how to live there lives and take away their freedom, I will be dead before that happens."

Rant off

[Hangtime]

Oh; ye of few clues and fewer facts.. harken!

Every major fight this countrys been in has had draftees facing the pointy end of the enemys spear. Welcome to the Infantry!

ONLY in vietnam were those conscrpitees handed a 'go home' ticket at the end of twelve months in the battle zone and led by officers and noncoms that were overwhelmingly RA. (voulenteers) Think about that.. we were not there 'for the duration' as our fathers were in WWII and we were NOT fighting for our homes, our loved ones. Nobody was bombing San Francisco, we were not fighting Hitler.

I served. A very large part of my unit were UA (draftees). When we got field assignments that involved some pointless bushbeating we were less than enthusiastic about the process. When we got field assignments that involved support or extraction of engaged friendlies we did our work with a will. Our avowed mission, amongst ourselves; was mutual support and survival.

The draftees in my unit were irreverent, often disrespectful of our senior officers, but they also did the stinkin job. Every gawdamned time. Do not confuse this attitude with disloyalty. A soldier can do his job without being a lifer. When we put on the boots we did not check our brains at the door.

When politicians like Rumsfield paint with a broad brush they do the individuals that faced the music over there an injustice.  To be 'called to service by the nation', to answer that call and do the duty assigned should not reap Rumsfields Reward. The draft may be 'history' now.. but should this nation face another protracted struggle, it WILL be back... and again, those called will again be the in the majority; out there facing the pointy end...

[Kanth]

Nash do you happen to have a link to this speech?

I haven't seen it in the news and doing a search I'm unable to locate it, or anyone have a link to it?

Originally posted by Nash

For the (freaking) Secretary of Defence to say that these people were of "no value" is pretty sick. Afterall, it was exactly his ilk that drafted them and signed their death certificates in the very first place.
 

[Nash]

You can get every day's DoD's press briefing right from their webpage:

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jan2003/t01072003_t0107sd.html

"And what was left was sucked into the intake, trained for a period of months, and then went out, adding no value, no advantage, really, to the United States armed services over any sustained period of time, because the churning that took place, it took enormous amount of effort in terms of training, and then they were gone."

Heh... looking at it now.... one quick and dirty slashing of the quote's insides leaves you with:

"And what was left was sucked into the intake... churning took place... and then they were gone."

Arbitrary, but kind of poetic.

[Suave]

Ahh the days of the draft.. When the CQ and SDO did their night barracks checks with a baseball bat and a 45 .

And that was stateside .

[Dead Man Flying]

Though Rumsfeld's choice of words was poor, I think a lot of people miss the gist of what he's saying.  It's not so much that he attacks draftees as having no combat value, but rather that the costs associated with training and maintaining a conscripted army do not add up.

Meaning that you spend the time, effort, money, and resources to train conscripts, and then after their tour is up they're gone.  Back to square one with a new set of conscripts.  An all-volunteer army doesn't produce this kind of massive turnover and the costs associated with it; there is far less combat experience "brain drain" over time.  And if we as a country have the capacity to maintain an all-volunteer army, why unless absolutely necessary would we ever want to institute a draft and all of the costs associated with it?  

Here's the quote unceremoniously ripped from Nash's post:

"And what was left was sucked into the intake, trained for a period of months, and then went out, adding no value, no advantage, really, to the United States armed services over any sustained period of time, because the churning that took place, it took enormous amount of effort in terms of training, and then they were gone."

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Suave]

When I was in durring the 90s they were looking for excuses to kick people out of the army . All you had to do was knock on the CO's door if you wanted out. People who met physical fittness standards but looked fat were kicked out . They even offered NCO's bonuses to get out . Heck when I was in you needed college to make it to SGT. The result of this was I believe an army of the highest quality soldiers ever, certainly better than the WWII or vietnam era army .

Our CSM was talking to us about how much the army had changed. He was telling us a story about when he was staff duty NCO back in the seventies. It was years after the draft but there were still a lot of scumbags in . He was doing the night security checks with staff duty officer going around to each battery and checking in with the CQs etc. At one battery they couldn't find the CQ at the orderly room . So they started looking, he walked in front of the SDO with a baseball bat and the SDO had his 45 . As their were walking through the barracks they heard a loud crash and banging. They ran down the hall and around the corner to find a wall locker someone had just pushed down the stairs from 2nd floor . They heard a person groaning from inside the wall locker (which was locked) . They had just found the CQ .

[Cabby44]

As i recall, LBJ(a sleazy Democrat of the highest order)drafted the toejam out of American youth(and was reviled for it)and sent 'em by the thousands to Viet Nam.   Burning draft-cards and giving LBJ/Pentagon the finger  was SOP for Liberal-Lefities, most of whom were from the Upper Middle Class and had draft deferments.  They of often did so to the strains of that Country Joe and the Fish tune.  Oh BTW, Country Joe and his "Fish"(i always assumed the "Fish" were the audience) were one of the worst "musical" groups ever.   Cats yowling in a back-street alley sound better.

And when these draftees returned home,  they were then toejam on by the Liberal Leftie Democrats( many carrying Ho Chi Minh/Che Guevara  photographs in their expensive sheepskin wallets,  and driving tres chic 1960's era Mercedes Benz's for that "Rich, Cool Hippie" look).  

Liberal-Left "Anti-War" psuedo-intellectuals, media pinheads, wet-behind-the-ears college punks, and generally-too-stupid-to-live Neo-Anarchists often called these mostly working-class(the "class Liberal Leftists are most "concerned" about, that's why they called cops, who are decidedly working class,  "Pigs")draftees "Baby Killers", "Murderers", and worse.

And now these same Liberal-Leftist love muffines want to re-institute the Draft???????   Do the Liberal Leftists really think people are that stupid??   As a matter of fact,  they most certainly do.  Liberal Leftists count on stupidity for their very survival.

Hey Weezy, ain't ya gonna show us yer medals again???

Cabby

[Dead Man Flying]

You're getting better, Cabby.  I only counted seven references to "Liberal-Lefties" and the "Liberal-Left" in that last rant.

-- Todd/Leviathn