Generalizing Europeans...

[StSanta]

To the ommanders defence, his task was first and foremost the safety of his troops. It's a black stain on the UN cloth though, that is sure. However, the Dutch troops were very lightly armed and had no effective defense against tanks and 23mm anti aircraft guns that can be pivoted to hit ground targets. Their commander messed up, but the Dutch troops did their best.

I belive that if there'd been a fight, the Dutch would have been overrun and killed, followed by the civilian population they were trying to protect. The UN leadership dinnae seem too keen on an all out war - and that's not what peacekeepers are for. NATO is better at the stuff, as seen by the attack on Serbia.

It's worth noting in that bombing campaign that NATO was unable to hit particularly many tanks or artillery pieces. Infrastructure was hit, but troops, tanks and artillery was too hard to hit. I gather that's why they like fighting in the desert - easy to find the targets especially at night, using IR. Not so on the Balkans were the terrain is a serious obstacle.

The Dutch were peace keepers, not assault forces. Perhaps we'll learn that peace keepers aren't enough in a war torn country with ethnic cleansing - one needs peace through superior firepower.

Straffo, dinnae mean to disrespect the French people. What I was alluding to (and made a direct reference to) was the economic ties your government has with Iraq and therefore their lack of support for a war.

[Gunthr]

Eight European leaders declared their solidarity with the United States in a statement published in newspapers across Europe Thursday. The joint statement is signed by leaders of the United Kingdom, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland.

Great news. The actual letter is touching. I think there is even more agreement behind the scenes...

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by StSanta
To the ommanders defence, his task was first and foremost the safety of his troops.

[/b]
Not really because in that case they would all have stayed at their home base in Holland.

It's a black stain on the UN cloth though, that is sure.

[/b]
Are you joking? The stain is on the Dutch CO. The UN is no more "stained" by this than they were when the Indonesian UN Peacekeepers in Bosnia were ambushed...i e not at all.

However, the Dutch troops were very lightly armed and had no effective defense against tanks and 23mm anti aircraft guns that can be pivoted to hit ground targets. Their commander messed up, but the Dutch troops did their best.

[/b]
You have a very funny way of seeing things santa. Apparently "the best" they could do was surrender? I would have thought they at least had some more fight in them than the French, but I guess you see things differently.

Anyway, as I said earlier, they had a whole city to fall back into. You know...cities...tanks...comba t...yes, that rings a bell.

I belive that if there'd been a fight, the Dutch would have been overrun and killed, followed by the civilian population they were trying to protect. The UN leadership dinnae seem too keen on an all out war - and that's not what peacekeepers are for. NATO is better at the stuff, as seen by the attack on Serbia.

[/b]
Well, personally I think if there had been a fight, the USAF would have come down on the Serbs like a ton of bricks. But speculation like that is pointless.

It's worth noting in that bombing campaign that NATO was unable to hit particularly many tanks or artillery pieces. Infrastructure was hit, but troops, tanks and artillery was too hard to hit. I gather that's why they like fighting in the desert - easy to find the targets especially at night, using IR. Not so on the Balkans were the terrain is a serious obstacle.

[/b]
Well, generally there is a difference between trying to find and hit tanks, troops and artillery that are engaged in combat, and tanks, troops and artillery that is being hidden inside buildings, in woods etc. The Serbs would have had two choices, call off the attack and hide, or take their chances against the USAF.

The Dutch were peace keepers, not assault forces. Perhaps we'll learn that peace keepers aren't enough in a war torn country with ethnic cleansing - one needs peace through superior firepower.

[/b]
Peace keepers is enough, you just have to make sure their CO's arent French.

[blitz]

I don't blame our netherland nebours for screbreniza.
Nobody wanted our soldiers to die whether from  the Netherlands, UK, US, Germany, France or or whereever.
That was the real problem.
The UN tries to help in conflicts, no more no less, and they make mistakes. That time it cost 7000 lives but who cares , was 7000 moslem terrorists less to kill in the future anyways.

Will be the same in iraque.
200- 400 crusemissiles in the first hour (hope we get some real time videos on impact, can't stand the fun), masses of our mighthy 10 k B-52 will drop their deadly load on them later, rest of them will be sorted out by US marines + UK special forces, and i give a dead rat bellybutton about some 100 or some 1000 Saddam Hitler supportin civilians who dies with their military personal.

We know he is theatening the whole world.
Last month i weld a 1 inch steel plate on the roof of my VW-van,
hope it's enough to keep Saddams scudroketts of my front seat.
Today i ran to the survival store to get me a second gasmask( i admit almost in panic) in case nr 1 refused to work.
Lots of food just checked in my fridge- will he blockade our food support in the west? No clue.

We'll get him, w'll get them, w'll get them all

Regards Blitz

[CyranoAH]

Apparently the letter was written by Jose Maria Aznar, the spanish president... go figure.

Most people here think we are on the wrong side of the fence, joined by "I love the USA" Blair and "There's positively no judge I can't buy in Italy" Berlusconi... time will tell.

France and Germany have clearly demonstrated they are the economic powers in Europe, and for good reason.

Daniel

[straffo]

Originally posted by Rude
Perhaps the reason that smaller nations support the US intervention into Iraq, particularily the former east bloc, is because the abuse they suffered by tyrannical leaders is still fresh in their minds....Germany and France have been fat and sassy for a long time.

one single reason : $

nothing more nothing less

[straffo]

Originally posted by StSanta
Straffo, dinnae mean to disrespect the French people. What I was alluding to (and made a direct reference to) was the economic ties your government has with Iraq and therefore their lack of support for a war.

np mate

Btw I don't think we are making a lot of money with Iraq today

You should have IMO wrote :  ...economic ties your government  had with Iraq ...


but I could be wrong as usual

[straffo]

I'll give an almost perfect exemple of a Swedish UN failure ...
 
But as I'm a lazy slacker I won't even translate it :

La Suède a contribuée "involontairement" à l´instauration de la dictature de M. Mobutu par le canal de son action militaire dans le cadre de l´ONU au Katanga.

We can learn interresting things when having a friendly swedish customer former army member ...

Don't you think Hort ?




Now Bug you have something to wave in front of Steve ...

[Hortlund]

Well, if you're not going to translate it, what is the point of posting it?

Sorry to break this to you straffo, but french is not the universal language anymore, English is.

[beet1e]

Dowding - some basic principles...

The Electorate elects.
The Government governs.

Each party appeals to the electorate to say why they should be the party elected. Once that's done, the election takes place, and the winning party becomes the government, and proceeds to govern.

I really don't hold with this belief that the government should consult the electorate upon every issue that arises. The risk to world security posed by Iraq is best assessed by those in the know - the CIA and MI6, and not by a bunch of bleeding heart liberals with multi coloured hair, a nose stud, and an earring in one ear.

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by beet1e
Dowding - some basic principles...

those in the know - the CIA and MI6, and not by a bunch of bleeding heart liberals with multi coloured hair, a nose stud, and an earring in one ear.

Dear oh dear Beetle, next you'll tell us your a gun owner next.

The CIA, and MI6 don't have a magic ball, and often can be found wanting in some respects.

IF australians don't want war without a UN mandate (and that majority isn't 51%, or even 55% - but over 70%), then it's up to the government to listen to the people of this country BEFORE they deploy troops...which they haven't.

We're talking war it's not just any issue.

 Tronsky

[Octavius]

Originally posted by blitz

We know he is theatening the whole world.
Last month i weld a 1 inch steel plate on the roof of my VW-van,
hope it's enough to keep Saddams scudroketts of my front seat.
Today i ran to the survival store to get me a second gasmask( i admit almost in panic) in case nr 1 refused to work.
Lots of food just checked in my fridge- will he blockade our food support in the west? No clue.

Blitz, I can't tell if thats seriousness or borderline sarcasm?

I don't think Iraq is capable of hitting Germany with any sort of ranged weapon.... atleast I think it's safe to assume that.  In the United States, so far away from all the 'action,' I never felt we have to fear any sort of invasion or attack with conventional military weaponry.

This may have gone over my head, but are German citizens seriously fearing for their safety?

[Dowding]

That's roadkill Beetle. On the issue of war, which is a state of affairs as grave you'll ever get, you can't expect the population to merrily send their sons off into battle without a qualm. Those days are long gone - and a good thing it is too.

This isn't some covert surveillance operation that would warrant discretion, this is a large scale, patently overt endeavour.

Basically, you're saying that the opinion of the public is irrelevant, once a government is elected. If that was the case, why do Blair and Bush even bother with press conferences in which they often speak directly to the public? We might as well just sit in the dark and let them feed us manure. Let's go back to the good old days of flag waving in front of the palace - afterall, the war that followed that particular event went ever so swimmingly, did it not?

Octavious - Blitz is making a little joke.

[takeda]

74% of spaniards completely oppose war.
13% agree to it with a clear UN mandate.
4% support an unilateral attack by the US and its allies.
(as reported by the extreme pro-aznar El Mundo)


Aznar will not run for Prime Minister again and has been in "lame duck" mode for a full year, and has another one to go. Wonder what amount of BS he can pull out of the hat in that time. This letter is in fact a fine piece of his fine "I know better than the unwashed morons that voted for me" attitude.

[straffo]

Hort : http://www.google.com/search?q=UN+Katanga+Sweden