Author Topic: Worth Repeating  (Read 1817 times)

Offline Habu

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Worth Repeating
« on: February 15, 2003, 08:03:58 AM »
Charles Krauthammer
From the Feb. 17, 2003 issue of TIME magazine

War in Iraq is coming. The demonstrators shout, "No blood for oil!" In his State of the Union address, President Bush declares, "We exercise power without conquest, and we sacrifice for the liberty of strangers." Which is it? Well, it ain't for oil. And it is for more than liberty.

What the demonstrators, who have the historical memory of a gnat, don't understand is that, on the contrary, oil is why America kept its distance from the region for so long. Ever since Franklin Roosevelt made alliance with Saudi Arabia, the U.S. chose to leave the Arab world to its own political and social devices so long as it remained a reasonably friendly petrol station. The arrangement lasted a very long time. Had Sept. 11 never happened, it would have lasted longer.

Sept. 11 brought home a terrible truth. It revealed a mortal enemy, even more fanatical than the vanquished scourges of the 20th century (fascism and communism), lying this time in the bosom of the Arab world. It was temporarily housed in Afghanistan, but it was not Afghan. It has non-Arab Islamic adherents, but it is not pan-Islamic. It does not speak for all Arabs, but it does speak to Arab frustrations, failures and fantasies, what Fouad Ajami has called "the dream palace of the Arabs."

Neglect, it turned out, had a price, a terrible price. After World War II, America pressed for democratic reform in Germany and Japan and throughout Western Europe and Asia. It succeeded. Democracy put down roots. Yet two regions remained exempt from this democratizing impulse: Africa, because of its chaos and lack of strategic assets; and the Middle East, because of its oil and apparent benignity.

Sept. 11 forever abolished the notion of benignity. It revealed an Arab world that had resisted modernization and democracy — and become home to the most virulent anti-Americanism on the planet. And that hatred threatens the most catastrophic consequences. Maybe not from Saddam, maybe not even from al-Qaeda. Maybe only from their emulators and successors. The players may change, but the blow will come.

Hence the awful realization: preventing the next Sept. 11 will require America to engage the Arab world the way it engaged Europe and Asia a half-century ago. Totally. We have long recoiled from such an undertaking. For decades, we tried a far more modest approach to the Arab world. It had three parts:

--Pacification: buying off and subsidizing corrupt governments.

--Policing: dealing with terrorism as a form of crime, not war.

--Patrolling: maintaining a balance of power in the region principally through an offshore naval presence.

After Sept. 11, the old offshore, hands-off, see-no-evil policy will not suffice. We now understand the cost of that abdication. It leaves a critical part of the world insulated and isolated — and incubating terrible enemies and terrible weapons.

Hence Iraq. This is about more than the terrible weapons. It is about reconstituting a terrorized society. A de-Saddamized Iraq with a decent government could revolutionize the region. It would provide friendly basing not just for the outward projection of American power but also for the outward projection of democratic and modernizing ideas, which is why the Administration plans an 18-month occupation for a civil and political reconstruction unlike any since postwar Germany and Japan. If we succeed, the effect on the region would be enormous, encouraging democrats and modernizers — and threatening despots and troglodytes — in neighboring Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria and beyond. To do this, however, America must give up patrolling from over the horizon. It must come ashore.

Americans don't like that. They do not hunger for exotic lands. America is perhaps the only hegemonic power in history in constant search of "exit strategies." But Sept. 11 taught that what the U.S. needs in the Arab world is not an exit strategy but an entry strategy. Iraq is the beckoning door.

The Arabs fully understand this historic shift from containment to construction. They see that pan-Arab reformation is the deepest meaning of an American entry into Iraq. That is why the Arab League so strenuously opposes the intervention. The rulers of the 22 Arab states — not a single one freely elected — understand that Iraq is only the beginning and that reformation ultimately spells their end. Not a happy prospect for them, but a real hope for their long-repressed peoples — and for those threatened by the chaos and fanaticism bred in that cauldron of repression.

Reformation and reconstruction of an alien culture are a daunting task. Risky and, yes, arrogant. Which is why there is no great desire in America to undertake such a mission. Before 9/11, no one would have seriously even proposed it. After 9/11, we dare not shrink from it. America is coming ashore.

Charles Krauthammer
From the Feb. 17, 2003 issue of TIME magazine

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2003, 08:40:00 AM »
NO WAR FOR OIL!!!

Or as Dowding would say:

What...ever... :D

Offline Ping

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« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2003, 09:01:22 AM »
Why dont you pro-attack soldiers focus on the true threats.

Pakistan which funds and supports terrorists. Has Al-quackies running in and out of its borders.

Korea which has commited armed agression and threatens Nukes (include India and Pakistan in that)Has a real horrid human rights problem.

Saudi Arabia which has a HUGE Al-quackie and other orginizations in its boundries. Has a real horrid human rights problem. Provided the most Manpower behind 9/11. Talking about having the US leave its land.

Turkey which is guilty of genocide and abuse of the Kurds. Horrid violater of Human rights.

Israel which is guilty of the worst record of violating UN resolutions and is also guilty of war crimes as well as Humans Rights. (check out the UN site for confirmation).

The list goes on and on and on. But the problem is that most on the list I gave is hampered by the minor detail of being a US ally.
I/JG2 Enemy Coast Ahead


Offline Nath[BDP]

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« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2003, 09:07:21 AM »
Think deeper.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2003, 09:38:24 AM »
So in your mind Israel and Turkey are worse than Saddam Hussein.... Are all Canadians as stupid as you?

Offline Ping

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« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2003, 06:55:57 PM »
Grun..once again look up the facts.

this is the point of the edit..where are any of my points wrong?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2003, 07:05:00 PM by Ping »
I/JG2 Enemy Coast Ahead


Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2003, 07:11:17 PM »
Ping..

Would you prefer we wait and do nothing about saddam?

Shall we launch on Paksitan, India, Saudi Arabia, N Korea??

.... by your argument, since we allow Saudi Arabia to exist, we should allow Iraq to continue it's program unmolested?

Would world opinion favor us better if we assaulted King Fasil because his dissidents are pro-AQ?

Would the world hate or applaud if we destroyed tel-aviv?

Shall we bomb the General Shaif outta pakistan for aiding us against the Taliban?

By your logic, a pre*emptive strike on ottowa to secure canadas oil would be a prudent thing. No tellin who yer gonna sell that oil to, and we MUST control all oil. That is americas mission.

*sigh*
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Ping

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« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2003, 07:25:42 PM »
No Hang..It is all of you telling us what is the greatest threat. I am only showing you what is a greater threat according to your own news sources as well as the UN and government sources.
You asked and I answered. That is all..
I/JG2 Enemy Coast Ahead


Offline blitz

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« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2003, 07:42:26 PM »
Heh Habu, your democatic friends outa Saudi Arabia sends the deadly load on WTC.

Might ya better deal with them.

Regards Blitz

USA is threathened in no wa by Iraq, it's just plain redicuolous.

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2003, 07:50:51 PM »
Ping,

Solve the problem then.

Lead me.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Habu

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« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2003, 07:51:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ping
No Hang..It is all of you telling us what is the greatest threat. I am only showing you what is a greater threat according to your own news sources as well as the UN and government sources.
You asked and I answered. That is all..


Ping I agree that Iraq is not the most evil regime in the world at this time. However the US and Iraq have a long history. Iraq has links to terrorists. Do you not think that a country that so openly gives money to encourage suicide bombers is innocent in this regard? And Iraq had defied the UN for years. What better a target to make an example of.

Is you suggestion to go after a nuclear power like North Korea first? When the majority of terrorists in the world are middle east based? What would that do?

Part of the reason the US is such a target is that they tend not to respond to terrorist attacks (at least in the past that is) and this encouraged people like Bin Laden to get more and more bold.

Do you remember how anti US the Taliban was just before the attacks? They were ready to kill a number of US citizens for being Christians and having bibles in Afghanistan. Once the US said they were coming to wipe the Taliban out did you not see how Pakistan did a 180? They saw what the rest of the Arab world is seeing. There is not future in being the US's enemy or in aiding and abetting the US's foes.

It is unfortunate that it is necessary to have a war. But better a small one now than a large one later.

Offline Habu

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« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2003, 07:53:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by blitz
Heh Habu, your democatic friends outa Saudi Arabia sends the deadly load on WTC.

Might ya better deal with them.

Regards Blitz

USA is threathened in no wa by Iraq, it's just plain redicuolous.


Blitz did you even read the article at the beginning of this thread? I can tell you did not or if you did then your reading comprehension skills are lacking (to put it mildly).

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2003, 03:00:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ping
Why dont you pro-attack soldiers focus on the true threats.

Pakistan which funds and supports terrorists. Has Al-quackies running in and out of its borders.

Korea which has commited armed agression and threatens Nukes (include India and Pakistan in that)Has a real horrid human rights problem.

Saudi Arabia which has a HUGE Al-quackie and other orginizations in its boundries. Has a real horrid human rights problem. Provided the most Manpower behind 9/11. Talking about having the US leave its land.

Turkey which is guilty of genocide and abuse of the Kurds. Horrid violater of Human rights.

Israel which is guilty of the worst record of violating UN resolutions and is also guilty of war crimes as well as Humans Rights. (check out the UN site for confirmation).

The list goes on and on and on. But the problem is that most on the list I gave is hampered by the minor detail of being a US ally.

Pakistan and Saudi are US allies. Pretty foolish to go to war on them. They do have problems with Al Queida presence within their borders, but the solution to that problem is hardly to send in the Army.

Turkey and Israel are part of the good guys, if you have any objections with their policies, you should take it up with your congressman or whatever.

N Korea is a threat that needs to be removed. Right now the bulk of the US army is deployed on the Iraqi borders...it would be kinda silly to redeploy to Korea, and then back to Iraq dont you think? I mean better to take out Iraq first and then take out N Korea.

Offline Siaf__csf

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« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2003, 03:48:39 AM »
Hortlunds logic: We should attack Iraq and problem is solved because:

"Pakistan and Saudi are US allies. Pretty foolish to go to war on them. They do have problems with Al Queida presence within their borders, but the solution to that problem is hardly to send in the Army."



Laymans logic: We should figure out ways to force Saudi-Arabia and Pakistan to root out the AQ camps and the people who fund it instead of attacking Iraq which is a minor player in the game.

"Pakistan and Saudi are US allies. Pakistan only recently became one because US needed a standpoint to invade afghanistan. Both Pakistan and Saudi-Arabia officially support US but unofficially act as the MAIN working grounds for AQ."

The laymans logic falls to it's own impossibility.. Pakistan has plenty of nukes and missiles to go with. They're already half in war with India, nobody dares to touch the region as both have nukes.

Saudi-Arabia on the other hand sits on a huge storage of oil and is one of the concentrations of wealth on the planet. It's really tough to try to make thier life miserable by trade embargoes etc. because they simply have us on a chain.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2003, 03:51:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Hortlunds logic: We should attack Iraq and problem is solved because:
 


Correction: we should attack Iraq and the problem with Iraq is solved. I'm not saying there are no other problems, but one thing at a time ok.