Author Topic: SquadOps Sunday frame 3 - AARs (Read 2593 times)

dracken1 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 30, 2003, 05:28:07 PM »

from dinger

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oh and vladd, yeah, the B26s wer ein a tight formation in the clouds

as 1 of the escorting p51's of 308's b26's i had them below me for all but a short time they where in cloud and yes they kept a nice tight formation.
and wtg on that field 308
salute from 332viking squad

ramzey · « **Reply #16 on:** March 30, 2003, 05:53:30 PM »

easy guys

rules need som improvments.
Follow word by word rules writed on web page we go nowhere.

Look like Flossy resolve this problem over 6 months ago.
One tod frame we have very long flight on spitfires and lancesters
After frame time end flossy call logs closed beucose fight was end.
And give us 2 option u can exit now or fly home and land. Both cases your exit was counted as landing safe.
Flossy was so kinde and patience, she give time to return and wait till all return. She chk before all fights was end and all rtb.
/other case was nobody tould me it was night frame till frame start;)/

So i not see problem here. Only patience of setup CM and admin CM. Thats all.

Last frame was long and bored for som ppls who not care about relity of frames. That other case. Think guys what fun u looking for.
Simulation game or arcade?
Score kills are not importand for me personal. Most importand was flying with my squadies and fun "we cheat virtual death again". If we start together and fly so long time i expect settings give us back home. Not kick us in the middle of return trip.
If for somone fun like this are not importand, im sorry.
Follow rules and direcives step by step not mean u cant be elastic and give us fun, what we like.
I was so proud, my squadron fly untouched whole last frame, make succesfull bombrun and even not loose any drone. Som of my squadies stay longer only to land together , even if som wifes stand over them:)

pls correct me if not this kinde of fun u looking for

ramzey

Dinger · « **Reply #17 on:** March 30, 2003, 06:09:04 PM »

okay:
I stand corrected: Pyroman was only the Setup CM. I'm sorry for suggesting he was the Admin CM. In that case, of course, I would suggest that the Admin CM be present to make the calls. During the mission, whoever's in blue in the arena is the boss.

Viff's orders clearly do make it impossible for the B17s to get to their target on time. But even if they'd flown directly to the target (like we did) they still couldn't make a round trip in three hours.

I had great fun in the mission. We flew at 17k for speed until we spotted a cloud bank. We descended and flew _tight_ in the clouds.
As we were IFR SW of A28, our sweep fighters - the 56th FG, called a high alt engagement 5 mles in front of us. We poured on the last two inches of manifold pressure and watched from our top turrets as a bunch of high dots ran into our high six cover, and the engagement swirled. They fought for quite a while, and we could only hope we wouldn't be found. Flaming planes dropped down behind us. Then we burst out of the clouds to clear skies. Ddriag maintained his escort. A high Me262 flew overhead, but didn't seem to notice us.

We all dropped on the target, not near it. I put my bombs in band's craters.
Left turn to 270 and an uneventful flight home. Most of our escorts went and picked up the B-17s coming in.

Grayarea · « **Reply #18 on:** March 31, 2003, 01:22:07 AM »

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Originally posted by Dinger
Okay Greyarea, thanks for assuming our route made RTB impossible.

As the Admin CM, I saw the orders and knew that the B17 could not make it RTB.

I hoped that the B26 would RTB ok.

DarkStarStv · « **Reply #19 on:** March 31, 2003, 02:53:37 AM »

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Fine I will have the rules also publically state that setup CM's have the authority to extend a frame or end a frame earlier based on their judgement and the circumstances/situations within the frame.

Perhaps I haven't been following this as closely as I should, but here is what happened to me as a 109 pilot...

The first "15 minute to land" message was given and confirmed. I lost all my altitude and was very close to landing.

Then I hear that that the frame is going to be extended by 15 minutes. There was no point in my trying to regain alt to engage. .

Of course, if I hadn't followed the original "15 minute to land" message I could have had the chance to engage. This must have happened to others too.

Seems like we are being penalised for following the rules... and then the rules are changed at a point where we have no opportunity of taking advantage of the extra time

If CM's (or anyone else) are allowed to do that kind of thing very often then it really messes things up.

DStar
The Wings of Death

Flossy · « **Reply #20 on:** March 31, 2003, 05:16:29 AM »

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Originally posted by DarkStarStv
Of course, if I hadn't followed the original "15 minute to land" message I could have had the chance to engage. This must have happened to others too.

DStar, as I understand it, the only reason the frame was extended was to allow the Allied buffs to land (they had much further to go!) - it was not an extra 15 minutes to get more kills in....

DarkStarStv · « **Reply #21 on:** March 31, 2003, 06:47:12 AM »

Hi Flos.

So are you saying that the extra 15 minutes was to give one side a chance to get more points by landing?

But no chance of the other side getting more points?

If the Allied buffs needed longer (and I don't think 15 minutes was enough for them to make it home anyway), then I suggest that this "scenario" is not suitable to be repeated in its current form.

If these "snapshot-like" events last much longer than 2 hours (plus being there 30 mins in advance and debrief etc) then it is getting a bit too long for me. Dont know how others feel.

Many"snapshot-like" events have actually managed 2 runs in the 2 hours.

I like long buff missions (as a buff and as a "hunter"). Probably the only way to do it in a 2 hour time frame is with the "quickstart" approach. Seemed to work quite well in a recent event, (with a little bit of practice

ramzey · « **Reply #22 on:** March 31, 2003, 08:13:21 AM »

Not more points by landing , but fly whole mission from start to land. For som ppls its much more importand them 1 hour more spend on SEA.

Somtimes back home on domaged buff is a core of fun.

"Quick" starts are not real, same like closing logs for pilots who have 100 mils home and many fuel for rtb

ramzey

ViFF · « **Reply #23 on:** March 31, 2003, 08:37:43 AM »

If I wanted to fly a "snapshot-like" event, i would go fly a snapshot or CAP.
Way I see it is that the SquadOps events are much more complex, and should not be limited by a hard 2 hr deadline, but extended as necessary to allow people to rtb.

Now I do agree that a certain time frame needs to be kept, or some people might take it too far. I planned for the buffs to arrive on the target at 90 minutes from frame start, next scenario somebody else CO'ing will plan for the buffs to arrive after 3 hours... so a limit needs to be placed.

What I would suggest is that future scenario orders for CO's include a mandatory "Time On Target" (ToT) objective, i.e. the primary/secondary targets must be hit by XX:XX into the frame.

AndyH · « **Reply #24 on:** March 31, 2003, 11:21:43 AM »

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Originally posted by ViFF
What I would suggest is that future scenario orders for CO's include a mandatory "Time On Target" (ToT) objective, i.e. the primary/secondary targets must be hit by XX:XX into the frame.

This is the best suggestion I have heard to sort out this recurring problem, if the CO thinks that it is not possible then he can bring it up before the event.

At least we will all be working to the same rules, and not leave the CM with a difficult decision. I would not like the squad ops to turn into an open ended event on Sunday night, not when I need to be up at 5:30 am.

If a frame needs to be planned for more than 2 hours we need to know before it starts, then we can make a decision before we commit.

Flossy · « **Reply #25 on:** March 31, 2003, 11:25:10 AM »

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Originally posted by DarkStarStv
So are you saying that the extra 15 minutes was to give one side a chance to get more points by landing?

But no chance of the other side getting more points?

Unless the orders stated there would be points awarded for landing, I don't think this applies? As far as I am aware, the extra time was simply so that the bombers could land. However, this issue is under discussion and is something we will be looking at closely over the next few days.

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If these "snapshot-like" events last much longer than 2 hours (plus being there 30 mins in advance and debrief etc) then it is getting a bit too long for me.

You can't really compare SquadOps with Snapshots - they are two totally different events!

SquadOps are generally more complicated due to the squad-based nature of the event. Snapshots tend to be simpler due to being mainly walkon events, with no pre-prepared orders.

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Probably the only way to do it in a 2 hour time frame is with the "quickstart" approach. Seemed to work quite well in a recent event, (with a little bit of practice

Agreed, and they are used frequently for SquadOps; however, we are currently limited to one(?) terrain with this option at the moment, so it is not always possible.

Anyway, we do welcome your comments and this issue is being looked at seriously at the moment to see if we can find a way which is acceptable to both sides for future SquadOps.

Dinger · « **Reply #26 on:** March 31, 2003, 11:38:25 AM »

Fair enough. As admin CM you could *hope* the B26s would make it back. You could also hope no children get bombed in Iraq.

but may I ask again, as admin CM and the supreme referee for this event, where were you? We don't start events without a commander for each side. Why is it that when it's clear the rules are screwed up and we need someone with authority, the only response in blue we get is "I'm not the Admin CM". Sort it out folks.

And whoever is the design CM screwed up. If you're making a bombing scenario, you want to ensure that a formation (and not just a single ship at full throttle) flying direct to the target can make the round trip well under the alotted time. If that round trip is over the alotted time, like it was for all bombers yesterday (go ahead and try it. 2.5 hours for the b26s and something like 3 hours for the b17s), you get a screwed up situation. If oyu make the round trip exactly the alotted time, the game becomes "let's see if the allied CO can figure out the one way in which this mission is possible."

I know the CMs are human and I hold them to unfair expectations (viz. some veneer of professionalism), but a well crafted and executed scenario is neither an easy nor a trivial matter. Do it right, and the praise is never enough. Do it wrong, and we end up fighting the CMs more than each other. And I'm sick of fighting CMs.

Grayarea · « **Reply #27 on:** March 31, 2003, 12:11:59 PM »

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Originally posted by Dinger
Fair enough. As admin CM you could *hope* the B26s would make it back. You could also hope no children get bombed in Iraq.

Gray: There was closer bases than the one you used.

but may I ask again, as admin CM and the supreme referee for this event, where were you? We don't start events without a commander for each side. Why is it that when it's clear the rules are screwed up and we need someone with authority, the only response in blue we get is "I'm not the Admin CM". Sort it out folks.

Gray: in a 190d9 nobody contacted me. Also the Admin CM does not have to be there. I for one have to drive 180 miles every Sunday night straight after SquadOps to be in the right place for work on Monday, some times I have to leave early and cannot make the frame at all, yesterday I was there.

And whoever is the design CM screwed up. If you're making a bombing scenario, you want to ensure that a formation (and not just a single ship at full throttle) flying direct to the target can make the round trip well under the alotted time. If that round trip is over the alotted time, like it was for all bombers yesterday (go ahead and try it. 2.5 hours for the b26s and something like 3 hours for the b17s), you get a screwed up situation. If oyu make the round trip exactly the alotted time, the game becomes "let's see if the allied CO can figure out the one way in which this mission is possible."

Gray: I knew from the first moment not all bombers would make it back. That was my design decision in order to use another part of the map and allow hi-alt fighters.

I know the CMs are human and I hold them to unfair expectations (viz. some veneer of professionalism), but a well crafted and executed scenario is neither an easy nor a trivial matter. Do it right, and the praise is never enough. Do it wrong, and we end up fighting the CMs more than each other. And I'm sick of fighting CMs.

Gray: It gets progressivly harder to bring in new elements to SquadOps, some work, some do not.

Flossy · « **Reply #28 on:** March 31, 2003, 12:13:00 PM »

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Originally posted by Dinger
but may I ask again, as admin CM and the supreme referee for this event, where were you?

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whoever is the design CM screwed up.

Are you directing that question at me? I can only presume so, as you seem to think the Admin CM and the "design CM" are two different people. To answer your question, if this is the case..... I am not the Admin CM and there was absolutely no requirement for me to be present at the SquadOp. The Admin CM is the "design CM", and I believe he (Grayarea) was there for the whole frame as a participant, having done his part before the frame started.

However, I would just like to say that if there are any problems during a frame the Special Events Arena is not the place to discuss it. Bringing any issues to this forum where they can be discussed amicably is far better than complaining to the Setup CM who is doing his best to keep the peace. The Setup CM does not write the event, but sets up the arena according to the wishes of the Admin CM, who does. He is there to host - answer some general questions, deal with discos and generally keep things running smoothly..... he is not there to be bombarded with complaints or disagreements about the design of the event.

214thCavalier · « **Reply #29 on:** March 31, 2003, 01:02:55 PM »

Just to add another twist, dont forget if the bombers cannot make the trip in time then same applies to the escorts.