Wow!, Bradley's knocking out T-72s?

[Monk]

The T72 is the biggest piece of crap ever to be built.  Way over rated.

I've seen Bradleys kill T72s with 25mm, no problem.

[Fishu]

Miko,

You need to take a lesson of spalling and concussion with AP rounds.
AP round going through an APC, would do some bad thing inside the tank, regardless of it going through or not.
the armour does not just dissapear to thin air from the area of penetration, nor does the air inside just be calm as ever..
In such a confined space as APC, theres little space to miss with the effects of AP round going through side to side.
Also, in a fight, wounded crew member is pretty much same as dead, maybe even worse, when you just cannot note him off as dead, but as someone screaming down your ear and in need of immediate first aid.

[Monk]

Yes sir,
The crews would "Pepper" the heck out of the T72s.  
We, sitting in our M1s would just shake our heads and laugh.

[miko2d]

I don't believe and AP round even deforms much when going through the flimsy obstacle like an APC and the thin armor is unlikely to spall - just to form a rather neat hole.

 On the other hand the effect of a piece of a stale bread shot out of a 125 mm T-72 cannon at the side of a BMP up close leaves quite a dent...

 Certainly, the crew will be heavily concussed or dead, but the vehicle can remain combat-worthy. The driver upfront may not even be affected much.
 Just like a mine blowing under the driver does not necessarily hurt the crew in the main compartment.

 miko

[miko2d]

T-72 and other soviet tanks were not designed to be used in small numbers by highly-qualified crews in defensive operations though they certainly could, with good crews and support (air cover, intel, etc.).

 They were designed to be used en-masse (50,000+ rolling simultaneously) in offencive operations manned by poorely-trained crews. They are not supposed to survive many hits.

 Where do you think the extra 20 tonns of weight on US tank goes? Not the larger cannon. Not the heavier engine. Just thicker armor.

 Americans/westerners do not have many tanks and are not wastefull with the lives of the crews, so one tank is supposed to survive quite a lot of fighting - and a lot of fighting in tank time means few minutes.

 miko

[Mini D]

Ah... now you are coming around Miko.  This was one of the great things about the T-34.  I am told that German tank commanders envied its functionality and simplicity.  What you lack in head to head performance, you've made up for with swarming tactics.

I remembre the old saying from WW2:  "The Tiger can take out any 7 soviet tanks.  The problem is there's always 10 of them."

But this thread is about armor penetration with a 25mm or TOW missile.  I don't know much about a TOW, but I know a bit about depleted uranium rounds.  I think "no way that could penetrate a T-72s armor" is an incorrect assertion.

MiniD

[Tumor]

Bradleys are killing T-72's with ease.  Next question?

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Mini D
But this thread is about armor penetration with a 25mm or TOW missile.  I don't know much about a TOW, but I know a bit about depleted uranium rounds.  I think "no way that could penetrate a T-72s armor" is an incorrect assertion.

There is no way a 25mm round can penetrate a T-72 armour if not shot from above. I mean a round from 25mm cannon.

Depleted Uranium isn't magic. It's just a very dense and soft material, pyrophoric (sp?) when pure.

[Mini D]

I disagree baroda... especially since anything fired from above it usually at less than a 45 degree angle to the armor... and still penetrates with ease (well... 30mm that is).

I'm sure there are parts of the tank that cannot be penetrated.  But I'm also sure there are parts that can.  Depleted uranium is something of a magical round.  It melts the steel as it goes through it.  Kenetic energy is transfered to thermal very quickly.  Its armor penetration capability is astounding.

MiniD

[miko2d]

Mini D: But this thread is about armor penetration with a 25mm or TOW missile.  I don't know much about a TOW, but I know a bit about depleted uranium rounds.  I think "no way that could penetrate a T-72s armor" is an incorrect assertion.

 Fortunately I was in no position to verify that, so I have no opinion except pointing out that the thickness of the armor is extremely uneven in different places and that ground-based tank killing machinery still mounts huge cannons rather than a bunch of 30mm autocannons.

 A 14.7 mm round (used in anti-armor rifles and for simulating main cannon ammo) fired from 50 yards leaves about 1/4 inch deep dent in the turret of a T-72.

 A 125 HE round with practice (non-explosive detonator) - about 30 kg, 1 inch walls fired from behind from 150-200 yards goes through the rear armor of the T-72, passes through the engine and gets stuck in the armor of the battle compartment without penetrating it.

 Could a .50 cal AP round penetrate the engine compartment 1-2? inch armor? Maybe yes, maybe no. The stuff inside that compartment is pretty sturdy, so the round would have to have enough power left to cause damage.

 miko

[Mini D]

Miko, I think you are still confusing issues.

The effective range of artillery is much greater than that of a cannon.  The need for the large guns is still there.  Nobody is laying claim to a 25mm round taking out a T-72 before the T-72 was in range to fire.

And, once again, I think you are underestimating the capability of a depleted uranium tipped round.

MiniD

[miko2d]

Mini D, I think you have a mistaken impression that I am arguing with you. I am not. I clearly said I have no opinion or knowlege on the penetrating capabilities of DU-cored (not tipped) 25mm rounds.

 What in my anecdotes about 14.7 steel-cored bullet, 125mm HE round without a detonator and stale piece of bread made you think I am denigrading the penetrating qualities of the 25mm DU round?

 I know that western (US, UK, Germany) main battle tanks use 125, 120 and 105mm cannons that fire DU AP rounds of much higher weight and at much higher velocities than 25mm or 30mm cannons.
 Those guys must have some idea what they are doing.

 miko

[Martlet]

Originally posted by Boroda
There is no way a 25mm round can penetrate a T-72 armour if not shot from above. I mean a round from 25mm cannon.

Depleted Uranium isn't magic. It's just a very dense and soft material, pyrophoric (sp?) when pure.

It happened.  T-72 sucks.  If it hurts you that much, get some counseling.

[Mini D]

Miko.. you keep bringing up the larger artillery as reasons the 25mm is not effective.

Once again, its about range.  How much farther can an M-1 fire than a T-72?  Which has the range advantage?   How many times farther is that than a 30mm's range?

If you're firing a round at 3 miles, you want it to kill whatever it hits.  If you can put rounds into it from 1000 yards, you have an entirely different set of parameters to work with.  The Bradly is only good in one of those scenarios, the MBTs are good in both.

Once again... I'm not arguing that the Bradly is an effective anti-tank weapon.  Just that it can penetrate a tank's armor with the 25mm.  Of course, in order for it to get into range, it has to rely on one hell of a lot of missing by the tank or an inept tank crew.

MiniD

[ccvi]

Two things are important for armor penetration: The relation between density of mass of the bullet and the armor and the length of the bullet. Whether they're 25mm or 120mm isn't that important (120mm rounds are usually longer than the 25mm ones though).