Author Topic: Activist Declared Brain Dead  (Read 2995 times)

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2003, 06:07:16 PM »
A man with orders to do so.

It gets you out of anything, that. I wonder how they can live with themselves though. Unless you look at it as though you are killing worthless animals, or are too stupid to think or use the bottle to forget.
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Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2003, 06:15:25 PM »
Kanth,
The Israeli military were in an area they shouldn't be, that's why the peaceful protest group was approaching.
We're not talking of a Palestinian group approaching a military group in Israel. Heck, I'd rather the Palestinians use peaceful protests w/out the fear of getting killed, rather than they resort to suicide bombings.
That soldier that took aim and fired on an innocent civillian is no better than the suicide bomber attacking innocent Israeli civillians. The difference is that this soldier is free to keep doing the same to other innocent civillians.
I'll bet that the Israelis invetigating this incident will not find fault with the military and the soldier will stay in his position. No justice, unfortunetly.
BTW, the explosives as used by the suicide bombers wont destroy a tank. Might damage the engine if he laid on the engine compartment. Might mess up the track links and a roadwheel or two if right next to it.
No valid excuse for opening fire on an unarmed, peaceful group at any distance, IMHO.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline Kanth

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« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2003, 06:27:19 PM »
I'm not arguing any of this with you.

I'm saying that if they stay away from those tanks they won't get shot by them. Simple logic, no right, no wrong.

As far as the particulars, I think I described what I thought about this incident in an earlier post.

Quote
Originally posted by SaburoS
Kanth,
The Israeli military were in an area they shouldn't be, that's why the peaceful protest group was approaching.
We're not talking of a Palestinian group approaching a military group in Israel. Heck, I'd rather the Palestinians use peaceful protests w/out the fear of getting killed, rather than they resort to suicide bombings.
That soldier that took aim and fired on an innocent civillian is no better than the suicide bomber attacking innocent Israeli civillians. The difference is that this soldier is free to keep doing the same to other innocent civillians.
I'll bet that the Israelis invetigating this incident will not find fault with the military and the soldier will stay in his position. No justice, unfortunetly.
BTW, the explosives as used by the suicide bombers wont destroy a tank. Might damage the engine if he laid on the engine compartment. Might mess up the track links and a roadwheel or two if right next to it.
No valid excuse for opening fire on an unarmed, peaceful group at any distance, IMHO.
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Offline Kanth

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« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2003, 06:35:00 PM »
Then how can there be war criminals?

Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
A man with orders to do so.

It gets you out of anything, that.  
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Offline rc51

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« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2003, 07:40:10 PM »
That soldier that took aim and fired on an innocent civilian is no better than the suicide bomber attacking innocent Israeli civilians

Worst that a terrorist!
He is a professional soldier and should have the morality to know better not to mention the training to tell the difference between a mad suicide bomber and a child!!

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2003, 08:34:39 PM »
Quote
"The United Nations proposed the creation of two states in the region - one Jewish, one Arab. The Jews accepted it gratefully.

Sorry, wrote a long reply and lost it, so my reply will be even less coherent than usuall.

The Jews accepted it grudgingly, with Ben Gurion accepting it as a stepping stone to a Jewish state in the whole of Palestine, by force of arms if neccessary.

It's interesting to note the Arab objections to the UN plan:

"... the question of creation of a Jewish State cannot be taken without two other connected problems; that is, the question of immigration and that of foreign subsidies. A Jewish State would, of course, be master of the immigration into Palestine. It might decide that immigration would be without limits and the economic argument, which would be that it is impossible for a very large number of people to live in a very small territory, would become void if the Jewish State can still reckon with foreign financial support. Therefore, with the doors of the country wide open to immigration, and financial support from outside, the Jewish State would become extremely populated. Therefore, it might not be 1 million, but 2, 3, 4 million, since it would not depend on its own economy or its own produc- tion. As soon as it goes beyond a certain limit in numbers, it is no longer a State where Jews can come and be safe but it becomes a bridgehead against the Arab world. This is what we absolutely want to avoid."

and the Egyptians:

""... the Egyptian Government certainly views with grave concern the establishment of Jewish colonies near the Egyptian frontier. That is only an indication of the first step towards the execution of Jewish ambitions towards Sinai which is already mentioned in the different proclamations, and certainly the Egyptian Government has taken measures against this danger which is getting nearer and nearer to the Egyptian territories;..." "

They were wide of the mark, weren't they?

The British submission:

""The right of any community to use force as a means of gaining its political ends is not admitted in the British Commonwealth. Since the beginning of 1945 the Jews have implicitly claimed this right and have (sic) supported by an organized campaign of lawlessness, murder and sabotage their contention that, whatever other interests might be concerned, nothing should be allowed to stand in the way of a Jewish State and free Jewish immigration into Palestine. It is true that large numbers of Jews do not today attempt to defend the crimes that have been committed in the name of these political aspirations. They recognize the damage caused to their good name by these methods in the court of world opinion. Nevertheless, the Jewish community of Palestine still publicly refuses its help to the Administration in suppressing terrorism, on the ground that the Administration's policy is opposed to Jewish interests. The converse of this attitude is clear, and its result, however much the Jewish leaders themselves may not wish it, has been to give active encouragement to the dissidents and freer scope to their activities ...""

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Arab leaders urged Arabs to leave the area so they would not be caught in the crossfire.

Try and find some evidence for that. You won't find any serious historian who supports it, or any evidence to back it up.

There have been in depth studies of the BBC listening serivce's archives, but they show nothing of the sort, just broadcasts uring Arabs to stay in place, and calling those who flee cowards.

It doesn't make sense to encourage your own people to become refugees anyway. They block roads you need to advance along, deny you support and shelter in forward areas, and place strains on logistics immediately behind your army.

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It didn't work out that way. By most counts, several hundred thousand Arabs were displaced by this war - not by Israeli aggression, not by some Jewish real-estate grab, not by Israeli expansionism.

Certainly by Israeli expansion. Haifa and Jaffa, the largest Arab town in Palestine, were both shelled and occupied by Jewish irregulars, before partition, despite being assigned to the Arabs under partition.

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Those poor unfortunates could be settled in a week by the rich Arab oil states that control 99.9 percent of the Middle East landmass, but they are kept as virtual prisoners, filled with misplaced hatred for Jews and armed as suicide martyrs by the Arab power brokers.

Firstly, why should other Arab countries take them in? They had perfectly good homes to go to in Israel.

Secondly, would you apply the same principles elsewhere? Europe should take in all the Kosovans, Bosnians and Croats so the Serbs can keep their ethnically cleansed lands? Perhaps the Poles could have been absorbed by the rest of the Slavs, giving Germany it's Lebensraum?

Thirdly, the most hate filled, the most troublesome Palestinians, are those who live in the West Bank and Gaza, which is ruled by Israel. They already have homes.

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At no time did the Jews uproot Arab families from their homes.

Deir Yassin? Even if the sources you seem to have read don't admit to a massacre, it's a simple fact that after capturing the village, all the inhabitants were bussed to Jerusalem and dumped, and the village razed.

Ramleh and Lydda were both cleansed at the express orders of Ben Gurion, with thousand of Arabs rounded up and shipped off.

Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2003, 09:50:45 PM »
I assumed the shooting was an accident ... apparently many posters are assuming it was intentional.

What is the truth?
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline Torque

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« Reply #52 on: April 12, 2003, 10:49:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
Hmmmm... its not right that someone is aiding/protesting in an environment where terrorists hide amongst civilians that encourage their behavior.  It adds a certain numb overtone to the whole situation.

Especially when you consider that most of the time the terrorists are targetting the civilian population in Israel.

I'm not a real big fan of Ghandi, but have to say the Palestinians could learn a lesson from him on how to get the world to stand up and back you.

MiniD



Yeah, Humpty Dumpty sat on the wall Humpty Dumpty just laughed at them all....

Offline Lizard3

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« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2003, 12:10:18 AM »
Ya'll reckon this fella just looked up from dozing on his tank and said "hey! there's a buncha civilians and kiddos! I haven't fired this here machine gun in a week of more. How about I just open up on em and see if it still works!"

Yeah, thats what happend. Allot of you people, as well as this young Brit, are stoges. You'll believe anything you read hear or see.

For example.  There was a rather famous photo going around Euro and Arab showing US troops being approached by some fellas with white flags, and another showing the US troops searching apparent bodies of the Iraqies...still clutching there little white flags. After some searching, they found the photographer who took the photo's. He said that there were a series of photo's showing the surrender, and the search of the guys. The arab and eyetalian papers had taken two of the photo's, omitted the rest, slapped an iflamitory headline on it and published it.

Of course, to a world of people who believe it just because it written in a newspaper or seen on TV, its just another example of the EVIL US of A.

You dont think this tanker fella saw em comin? You don't think he scoped em with his binocs? You don't think he was in contact with superiours? You reckon them Jews is smart enough to put a radio in a tank eh?

I'm in a tank in a hostile area near a refugee camp full of radical suiciders. I see a buncha people walkin toward my  tank draggin and carrying bundles and sacks, maybe a few poles(you did say they was going to pitch a tent). I get told to shoot, I shoot.

Whats the effective range on a modern soviet RPG? This guy will probably get reprimanded for letting them get to close.

Wake up people.

You wanna re-hash the whole shebang, make a new thread. This one is about how really stupid some people can be.

Pretty soon were going to have students from Berkley murder bombing   people here at home "in solidarity" with the Palestinians.

Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2003, 01:16:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lizard3
Ya'll reckon this fella just looked up from dozing on his tank and said "hey! there's a buncha civilians and kiddos! I haven't fired this here machine gun in a week of more. How about I just open up on em and see if it still works!"

Yeah, thats what happend. Allot of you people, as well as this young Brit, are stoges. You'll believe anything you read hear or see.

For example.  There was a rather famous photo going around Euro and Arab showing US troops being approached by some fellas with white flags, and another showing the US troops searching apparent bodies of the Iraqies...still clutching there little white flags. After some searching, they found the photographer who took the photo's. He said that there were a series of photo's showing the surrender, and the search of the guys. The arab and eyetalian papers had taken two of the photo's, omitted the rest, slapped an iflamitory headline on it and published it.

Of course, to a world of people who believe it just because it written in a newspaper or seen on TV, its just another example of the EVIL US of A.

You dont think this tanker fella saw em comin? You don't think he scoped em with his binocs? You don't think he was in contact with superiours? You reckon them Jews is smart enough to put a radio in a tank eh?

I'm in a tank in a hostile area near a refugee camp full of radical suiciders. I see a buncha people walkin toward my  tank draggin and carrying bundles and sacks, maybe a few poles(you did say they was going to pitch a tent). I get told to shoot, I shoot.

Whats the effective range on a modern soviet RPG? This guy will probably get reprimanded for letting them get to close.

Wake up people.

You wanna re-hash the whole shebang, make a new thread. This one is about how really stupid some people can be.

Pretty soon were going to have students from Berkley murder bombing   people here at home "in solidarity" with the Palestinians.


Well gee, since you are just so much more intelligent than the rest of us, how about you tell us what REALLY happened. I guess you'll rely on a source other than what you read, heard, or saw.

As to your statement of:
 "Pretty soon were going to have students from Berkley murder bombing  people here at home "in solidarity" with the Palestinians."
and
"You wanna re-hash the whole shebang, make a new thread. This one is about how really stupid some people can be."

You look in the mirror before you posted that?
How about you wake up.
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Offline Frogm4n

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« Reply #55 on: April 13, 2003, 01:23:50 AM »
first mistake any government makes is when they use the military to police civilians. you cant blame an army for doing what its been trained to do, kill.

Offline Lizard3

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« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2003, 02:44:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SaburoS

You look in the mirror before you posted that?
 


No, but I could feel the grin plastered from ear to ear. :D

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #57 on: April 13, 2003, 03:31:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lizard3
Pretty soon were going to have students from Berkley murder bombing   people here at home "in solidarity" with the Palestinians.


Lizard, in that case I'll start a new career as a hunting guide.  Bezerkeley is real close by and there's lots of cover and concealment up in the hills.  I'll be Marlin Perkins and Lazs can be Jim Fowler.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2003, 04:30:09 AM by funkedup »

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #58 on: April 13, 2003, 04:36:42 AM »
Kanth - the one who makes the order becomes the war criminal. The soldier gets away with it.
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Offline Badger

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« Reply #59 on: April 13, 2003, 07:21:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
Sorry, wrote a long reply and lost it, so my reply will be even less coherent than usuall.
 


Thanks for the feedback Nashwan...

Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree.  :D

From your profile I don't know who you are and as I said to Saburo, there's little point in trying to discuss it on this venue, which often sees 14 year olds argue with 60 year olds about the meaning of life. ;)

However, I would appreciate the source of all of your cut-n-paste quotations if that's convenient?  Thanks.

I can only tell you that I've spent over 40 years reading independent material including the all of the actual UN minutes.  I'm not Jewish and have no personal agenda in regards to either side.  All of what I've read points more to a simple solution of the Palestinians being used by Arab countries as continued pawns for their political needs.  It could be solved in a week if Israel, Syria, Lebanon, (a new Iraq), Iran and Jordan got together and really wanted to create a Palestinian state though compromise.  The word compromise doesn't seem to be in anyone's vocabulary at the moment, so the violence continues.

If you'd really want to continue a serious discussion, I'd be happy to furnish references and a phone number, so perhaps we could chat on the phone about it.  My private email address is in my profile.

Regards,
Badger