Author Topic: Activist Declared Brain Dead  (Read 2994 times)

Offline Badger

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
      • Military Surplus Collectors Forums
Activist Declared Brain Dead
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2003, 04:00:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Frogm4n
wonder if they would be called terrorists if the palestines started "relocating" isreali familys under gunpoint to make room for muslim settlers.


There's constantly so much inaccurate rhetoric about this subject that it's mind boggling... ;)  I think a lot of people post without ever having studied what the issue is about, or simply post to feel part of their particular clique's side, as a lot of people do here with most board issues.

To begin to understand the origins, you need to rewind back to yet another effective U.N. move in 1948, which they failed to back-up its own mandates, so instead of it being 12 years as with Sadam Hussein, it's been 55 years and still counting.

"The United Nations proposed the creation of two states in the region - one Jewish, one Arab. The Jews accepted it gratefully. The Arabs rejected it with a vengeance and declared war.  Arab leaders urged Arabs to leave the area so they would not be caught in the crossfire. They could return to their homes, they were told, after Israel was crushed and the Jews destroyed. It didn't work out that way. By most counts, several hundred thousand Arabs were displaced by this war - not by Israeli aggression, not by some Jewish real-estate grab, not by Israeli expansionism.

In fact, there are many historical records showing the Jews urged the Arabs to stay and live with them in peace. But, tragically, they chose to leave.

Fifty-five years later, the sons and daughters and grandsons and granddaughters of those refugees are all-too-often still living in refugee camps - not because of Israeli intransigence, but because they are misused as a political tool of the Arab powers.

Those poor unfortunates could be settled in a week by the rich Arab oil states that control 99.9 percent of the Middle East landmass, but they are kept as virtual prisoners, filled with misplaced hatred for Jews and armed as suicide martyrs by the Arab power brokers.

This is the modern real history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. At no time did the Jews uproot Arab families from their homes. When there were title deeds to be purchased, they bought them at inflated prices. When there were not, they worked the land so they could have a place to live without the persecution they faced throughout the world."


I'm not Jewish and I've done a lot of reading on this subject without a vested interest in either side.  IMHO, I don't think the statements above are far off how the world got to where it is today with this issue.  With a continued impotence of the U.N., I hold out little hope for peace there until reason, common sense and some patterns of civilized behaviour begin to appear in the region.

Regards,
Badger

Offline SaburoS

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2986
Activist Declared Brain Dead
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2003, 04:40:16 PM »
Badger, I'm glad you're the real expert. How about you give us an education so everyone here can argue the issues in a better manner.
1) Where did all the Palestinians that now reside in the West Bank and Gaza areas originally come from?
2) What areas are the "Occupied Territories" and why were they named so?
2a) Why are the Israeli settlers called "settlers" and the Palestinians not called "settlers"?
3) When was the first Israeli bulldozing of a Palestinian home/residence?
4) When was the first Arab suicide bombing of Israeli civillians?
5) What is "Greater Israel"?

Glad to have a real expert aboard to educate us, thanks.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline Kanth

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2462
Activist Declared Brain Dead
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2003, 05:01:23 PM »
Tanks were stationary. People (bringing kids with them) approached tanks, knowing they were hostile, armed and present.

Pretty hard to see it your way.

Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
I don't think you understand that it is the tanks that won't leave the people alone. Not the other way around.

Rc51.
Gone from the game. Please see Spikes or Nefarious for any Ahevents.net admin needs.

Offline MasterBlaster

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Activist Declared Brain Dead
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2003, 05:10:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Badger
To begin to understand the origins, you need to rewind back to yet another effective U.N. move in 1948,

Regards,
Badger


Badger,

I salute you for posting this history of the crisis.  It is indeed true that so many people focus merely on the present without any understanding of how the situation began.

Even though the Israelis MAY be a bit justified in their refusal to give up territory they conquered after winning a war they didn't start, they (and we) should look not at what is technically "justified," but at what will solve the problem.  The suicide bombers will probably never stop, and that Israel uses that as a pretense to never progress further on peace accords is a chickensh*t excuse.  Isarael needs to unoccupy the lands it rightfully conquered and give them back, resettle their own citizens back within the original U.N. borders, and allow a Palestinian State, even if bombings continue.  Once they do that, then they can reasonably expect the suicide bombings to stop and we should then back them fully.  But, all that aside - Islamic Extremists will always find a reason to hate us.  Even if the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is settled agreeably by both sides, terrorism against the U.S. will continue.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2003, 05:24:05 PM by MasterBlaster »

Offline Kanth

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2462
Activist Declared Brain Dead
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2003, 05:18:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz

"The activists wanted to set up a protest tent on the road in an attempt to block incursions into the camp, said Hamra and Khalil Abdullah, a Palestinian who works with the group but who is not a member.


translation: the protestors wanted to go set up a tent.

Quote

Along the way, the protesters were joined by several children, the witnesses said.


They allowed children to join them heading towards the tanks.

Quote

 When the group was about 200 yards away from three tanks, soldiers opened fire from a tank-mounted machine gun, the witnesses said."


When they got close enough to the tanks, the tanks shot them.

 And you think the tanks were after them?
Gone from the game. Please see Spikes or Nefarious for any Ahevents.net admin needs.

Offline Kanth

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2462
Activist Declared Brain Dead
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2003, 05:31:54 PM »
Right, and the people are the ones approaching the tanks, making the tanks 'not alone'.

not the other way around.

Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Nope. This is what I said.
Gone from the game. Please see Spikes or Nefarious for any Ahevents.net admin needs.

Offline SaburoS

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2986
Activist Declared Brain Dead
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2003, 05:36:13 PM »
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - A 21-year-old British peace activist was critically wounded Friday as he tried to get two children out of the line of fire in the Gaza Strip (news - web sites), witnesses said.
 
Thomas Hurndall suffered a head injury and was declared brain dead after arriving at Rafah Hospital, said Dr. Ali Musa.

Witnesses said Israeli troops firing from a tank struck Hurndall as he other activists in a pro-Palestinian group approached an army position on the edge of a Gaza refugee camp.

The Israeli army had no comment about Friday's shooting but said it would investigate.

Hurndall of Manchester, England, was the second activist wounded in a week. A third member of the group, the International Solidarity Movement, was killed a month ago while trying to stop an Israeli army bulldozer.

Palestinians have long complained that Israeli troops are using excessive force against civilians, and the mounting casualties among foreigners were expected to draw renewed attention to Israeli army practices in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Israel has said Palestinian gunmen often use civilians as shields and thus endanger them.

Friday's incident began when about a dozen members of the peace movement, including foreigners and Palestinians, walked toward Israeli tanks on the outskirts of the Rafah refugee camp, near the border with Egypt, said Khalil Hamra, a photographer on assignment for The Associated Press.

The activists wanted to set up a protest tent on the road in an attempt to block incursions into the camp, said Hamra and Khalil Abdullah, a Palestinian who works with the group but who is not a member.

Along the way, the protesters were joined by several children, the witnesses said. When the group was about 200 yards away from three tanks, soldiers opened fire from a tank-mounted machine gun, the witnesses said.

Hurndall and another foreign activist tried to get two children out of the line of fire, Hamra and Abdullah said. "Thomas (Hurndall) grabbed one of their hands and as soon as he did that a tank fired at him, hitting him in the head," Hamra said.

The photographer said the children were not throwing rocks at the troops and that he saw nothing that would have provoked the troops.

Rafah has been a flashpoint of clashes between Israeli troops and Palestinians.

A few blocks from where Friday's shooting occurred, American activist Rachel Corrie, 23, was killed March 16 while trying to stop an Israeli army bulldozer.

Witnesses said the bulldozer ran her over and then backed up. The army said the driver did not see her and that her death was an accident. Corrie, a student in Olympia, Wash., was the first member of the group to be killed in 30 months of fighting between Israelis and Palestinians.

Last week, Bryan Avery, 24, from Albuquerque, N.M., was shot in the face while walking with a fellow activist in the West Bank town of Jenin. Witnesses said he was wounded by army fire. The army said it was firing at gunmen in the area and was not aware it hit Avery.

Also Friday, the army said it had eased checkpoint restrictions in the West Bank town of Jericho after local police turned in a stock of weapons that included explosives and an anti-tank rocket.

Palestinian Cabinet member Saeb Erekat disputed the claim, saying he hadn't heard of a weapons handover and that checkpoint restrictions has been relaxed for months.

In other developments:

_Israeli human rights activists vowed to fight a military decision to banish to the Gaza Strip a Palestinian man who has been in jail for eight months, accused of crimes for which he was never charged or tried.

Dalia Kerstein, head of the Jerusalem-based Center for the Rights of the Individual, said Saadi, from the West Bank town of Jenin, had been imprisoned without trial since last June.

_ An army publication said the Israeli military is building a mock-up of a security fence between the West Bank and Israel. Work on the 180-mile fence itself began a year ago, but only a few miles have been completed.

The weekly "Bamahane" said the mock-up, at a base in central Israel, is a replica of the security fence, which is designed to keep Palestinian attackers out of Israel. It said the mock-up will cost $150,000 and be used for training army units that will patrol the fence.

*********************
Seems they were using a peaceful protest means ala Ghandi.
Remember this is on Palestinian territory.
Real funny about the guy getting shot trying to protect the kids as the a soldier opened fire (w/ tank mounted MG-prob a .50 cal) as the group aproached about 200 yards away. :rolleyes: Did you even read your own linked article?
Tasteless, yes.
Those that claim they were caught in the "crossfire", please show me where this group or someone behind this group opened up and shot at the Israelis? Crossfire is when opposing combatants fire on each other from relatively opposite sides. To get caught in crossfire, one has to be between the combatants.
The kids weren't "playing" with the tanks, they were mearly joining the group late probrably not really knowing why they were there.
In this instance, there was no indication of this group being other than a peaceful protest.
The Israeli army were the only ones that actually opened fire out of intimidation I'm sure for if they really thought they were threatened for their lives, they would have shot up that whole group. Seems they "sacrificed" one individual for the intimidation message. Hard to imagine a headshot being accidental (probably a sniper was deployed in the area).
In this instance I have to find the fault lies with the Israeli military. At 200 yards, the group isn't even close enough to hear verbal warnings. At 200 yards, what unarmed protestors can be perceived as a threat to a tank?
That group didn't think the Israeli army would open fire, especially at that distance.

I call that guy a hero for trying to save some kids with no regard to his own safety. Looks like he paid the ultimate price for it.
Anyway I look at it, to think this guy getting shot is funny in any way is sick, sorry.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline Badger

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
      • Military Surplus Collectors Forums
Activist Declared Brain Dead
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2003, 05:36:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SaburoS
Glad to have a real expert aboard to educate us, thanks.


Thanks, but no thanks... ;)

These Internet boards have so many people hiding behind masks of anonymity with some pretty dysfunctional characters and out of control egos, as evidenced by reading the huge amount of threads focused on the war.  On-line forums are not the best place to hold rational discussions and expect reasoned and courteous interaction.  You hit it on the head when you used the word "argue".  People argue constantly on here, but I doubt there's very many that ever bothered to read and digest the substance behind what they insult and flame each other about. ;)

Besides, you shouldn't be influenced by others, so the best way to learn is to form your own conclusions as I did, by reading as much as you can find.  I found the key for me was to start back at the beginning of the modern conflict, then work forward to present day.  That's why I suggested 1948 as a good starting place and it won't take you the rest of your life to gain a pretty good understanding of the issues. :D

I'm not an expert, just someone who's spent four decades listening to the propaganda spewed by both sides.  I got tired of everyone else professing to be an expert, so I chose to begin reading as much material as I could find to gain a better understanding of how this mess started, but more importantly, what kind of reasonable compromise could possibly be reached.

Unfortunately, Anwar Sadat[/url], the last Arab leader who achieved some form of peace on March 26, 1979[/url] was murdered by his own people, so I doubt you'll soon find others stepping forward to be catalysts for peace in a similar fashion.  It is interesting to note that this agreement between Israel and Egypt has survived his death and those two countries have essentially been at peace since then.

My only point was... don't believe much of the noise you read on any Internet boards about most social, political or business topics, outside of course combat aircraft and flight sims, which is what the focus of this particular site is about.  Toward that end, there are some really experienced and knowledgeable people posting on those topics.

Regards,
Badger

Offline SaburoS

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2986
Activist Declared Brain Dead
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2003, 05:40:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rc51
Frog i can't believe i'm gonna say this but i agree with you man.
There is no way to justify shooting an unarmed man that was trying to help some kids.
As a Jew I am ashamed of the Israeli army and there actions on this one.


rc51,
In this instance sir, I am glad you're an American ~S~!
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline SaburoS

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2986
Activist Declared Brain Dead
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2003, 05:54:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Badger
Thanks, but no thanks... ;)

These Internet boards have so many people hiding behind masks of anonymity with some pretty dysfunctional characters and out of control egos, as evidenced by reading the huge amount of threads focused on the war.  On-line forums are not the best place to hold rational discussions and expect reasoned and courteous interaction.  You hit it on the head when you used the word "argue".  People argue constantly on here, but I doubt there's very many that ever bothered to read and digest the substance behind what they insult and flame each other about. ;)



Badger,
Fair enough. It's too bad that too many here tend to attack the messenger and not argue/debate/discuss the issues.
~S~!
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline rc51

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 729
Activist Declared Brain Dead
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2003, 05:55:36 PM »
As a jew I know that israel must learn the art of GIVE and take.
thay can't have it there way all the time.
And using there army to kill inocent kids is WAY out of line .
No way in hell to EVER justify that. NEVER.

Offline Dowding

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6867
      • http://www.psys07629.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/272/index.html
Activist Declared Brain Dead
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2003, 05:58:48 PM »
I suggest you read Hitech's post Funked.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2003, 06:01:07 PM by Dowding »
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Kanth

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2462
Activist Declared Brain Dead
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2003, 05:58:55 PM »
It's not funny, what can I say tho, some people approached someone who is heavily armed. It doesn't matter what their intentions were, they bear the risk of getting shot.

Does it make it right? nope.

But the fact is, if you aren't near someone with bullets you won't get shot.

I don't understand the idea of approaching a foreign hostile army with no weapon and expect them to not shoot you because you are peaceful, I wouldn't personally take that chance.

Are they supposed to shoot unarmed folks walking around? nope, but you know what?  They did.

The whole situation with suicide bombers and people encroching on each others land, I don't understand..

why can't they just either duke it out or leave each other the hell alone.

I'm not there and I don't get it.

I'm not justifying what happened, I don't believe he or the children were a threat to the tanks. I'm simply saying that if they would stay away from the tanks and people with guns, they won't get shot.

Children should be no where near that area, they aren't old enough to make the decision to take that risk.

I would have considered the guy more a hero if he'd made the children get the hell away from the tanks, because they have bullets and aren't friendly.

Quote
Originally posted by SaburoS

The kids weren't "playing" with the tanks, they were mearly joining the group late probrably not really knowing why they were there.
In this instance, there was no indication of this group being other than a peaceful protest.
The Israeli army were the only ones that actually opened fire out of intimidation I'm sure for if they really thought they were threatened for their lives, they would have shot up that whole group. Seems they "sacrificed" one individual for the intimidation message. Hard to imagine a headshot being accidental (probably a sniper was deployed in the area).
In this instance I have to find the fault lies with the Israeli military. At 200 yards, the group isn't even close enough to hear verbal warnings. At 200 yards, what unarmed protestors can be perceived as a threat to a tank?
That group didn't think the Israeli army would open fire, especially at that distance.

I call that guy a hero for trying to save some kids with no regard to his own safety. Looks like he paid the ultimate price for it.
Anyway I look at it, to think this guy getting shot is funny in any way is sick, sorry.
Gone from the game. Please see Spikes or Nefarious for any Ahevents.net admin needs.

Offline rc51

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 729
Activist Declared Brain Dead
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2003, 06:04:51 PM »
The kids parents need to take some responsibility in this as well.
They indeed has no business near the tanks in the first place.
But what kind of man opens up with a machine gun on kids?

Offline Kanth

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2462
Activist Declared Brain Dead
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2003, 06:07:00 PM »
I truely don't know..I can't understand the mentality behind it at all.

Quote
Originally posted by rc51

But what kind of man opens up with a machine gun on kids?
Gone from the game. Please see Spikes or Nefarious for any Ahevents.net admin needs.