Author Topic: Lazs and guns (Read 2080 times)

Hortlund · « **on:** April 15, 2003, 05:27:15 AM »

I would like to hear your analysis on how guns for everyone prevent crime and how guns for everyone helps scare tyrants and invaders away.

...in light of the recent war in Iraq I mean...where something like 80% of the population had their own private AK-47.

ra · « **Reply #1 on:** April 15, 2003, 07:20:39 AM »

Offhand I would bet that before this war only those Iraqi citizens who were members of the Baath party were allowed to own guns. Since the Iraqi military abandoned their bases, other Iraqi citizens have looted their guns.

ra

Curval · « **Reply #2 on:** April 15, 2003, 08:32:04 AM »

Arguing the point with lazs is useless Steve...he is a "you can take my gun away when you pry it from my cold dead fingers" kinda guy. Ain't nuttin gonna change that man's mind..and you gotta respect him for his conviction.

Dowding · « **Reply #3 on:** April 15, 2003, 08:33:45 AM »

Lots of people had an AK-47 or at least a hand-gun in Iraq. Not just Ba'athists.

lazs2 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 15, 2003, 08:36:44 AM »

simply put... who was the biggest threat to coalition forces? Was it the republican guard or militia? who caused the most casualties? I would say that the militia did indeed cause a lot more grief to our forces.

Course... we are talking desert here... not much place to hide... whole country is the size of California.. Militia was not very dedicated to keeping the sadman in power either...

Imagine a jungle or forrest invoronment and a dedicated milita...say viet cong... or the like...

The U.S. is huge. It has excellent terrain (for the most part) for militia. Stepping out of the cities... most police forces would be useless.

as for crime.... most are using the AK's for defense against looters.. I bet that if there were no guns now in the hands of the law abiding... if it were simply "survival of the fittest looter" there would be much more crime...

The U.S. policy is... If the guy has one AK then he is just defending himself and to leave him alone... if he has more than 3 it is a weapons cache.

there were a few incidents of armed looting but they have been few compared to people defending against looting... when the looting stops it will be because of guns.

even considering that iraq is full of crazies right now (suicidal forces and foreighners with agendas) and in a state of lawlessness.... I would say that guns are doing pretty much as I (and John Lott among others) have allways said they would. Would you break into an iraqi home to loot knowing that the owner was armed with an AK?
lazs

Hortlund · « **Reply #5 on:** April 15, 2003, 08:37:22 AM »

Yeah, but I have been agreeing with lazs.

Heck, I'd like to have a gun too (well, I do have one, but that one is an assault rifle, and I sure as he** cant use it whenver I feel like it. And I have to keep it locked up in three parts AND with the ammo at a different location AND with a chamber lock, so in case I'd need it fast, it would take something like 10 minutes for me to just assemble the bloody thing and load the ammo (Im in the national guards, we get stuff like that))

ANYWAY
I also agree that the Police really cant protect us citizens. I see that everyday at work.

I've never believed in the "arm the citizens to protect them from tyrants"-part though.

*edit -I was answering to Curval btw...then lots of people posted at the same time

lazs2 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 15, 2003, 08:43:49 AM »

Hortlund... look at the historical examples so far as fighting against the "invaders"... look at the french, japanese and American forces in vietnam... look at afganastan... The world is not some large city in a small eurpopean country...

The U.S. is huge. If only 30 or 40 milloin citizens took up arms to help the majority of the populace fight tyranny... they would be harder to defeat than the viet cong.

detterant tho is the main advantage. It is better if everyone understands the facts and it simply never happens. I think that iraq proved my point... so long as they had the will.... the militia was more problem than the regular army.
lazs

Hortlund · « **Reply #7 on:** April 15, 2003, 08:48:23 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
I think that iraq proved my point... so long as they had the will.... the militia was more problem than the regular army.
lazs

I think that only applies to invaders with a "western civilization"-view on things.

I mean if teh US forces had chosen the Soviet/Russian or Chinese or Japanese philosophy when it comes to the morality of gunning down civilians, those militias really would pose less of a problem then snakecheese on a racetrack.

Wlfgng · « **Reply #8 on:** April 15, 2003, 08:59:44 AM »

fyi snake**** on a racetrack is deadly

bottom line:
I guarantee that invaders, from any country, would have a tougher time fighting against a country that had armed civillians than one that didn't.

America has more than it's share of high-powered weapons...among other things.

lazs2 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 15, 2003, 09:03:18 AM »

No hortlund... Look at the russians in afghanistan.. or the japs in vietnam... even the germans in russia... All those invaders felt like you do and every one of em created a quagmire. I think that the Americans did it right this time.

An invader that frees me from tyranny is not the same as an invader that brings tyranny. Americans have their own idea of right and wrong... you may not agree with it but you would have to respect it as an invader.

when you mow down the populace you create militia. When you publicly execute or terrorize you create militia especially if the alternatives are live free in the boonies and fight or live in terror in the city.
lazs

Hortlund · « **Reply #10 on:** April 15, 2003, 09:03:54 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Wlfgng
fyi snake**** on a racetrack is deadly

[/b]
Yeah...maybe to those pansy assed cars you make in the US.

Here in Sweden we build cars that will survive a head on collision with an 800-pound moose.

Dowding · « **Reply #11 on:** April 15, 2003, 09:38:10 AM »

Quote

there were a few incidents of armed looting

Understatement of the century. Easily.

Wlfgng · « **Reply #12 on:** April 15, 2003, 09:54:19 AM »

Quote

Yeah...maybe to those pansy assed cars you make in the US.
Here in Sweden we build cars that will survive a head on collision with an 800-pound moose.

cars??!!?? who said anything about cars ?

AWMac · « **Reply #13 on:** April 15, 2003, 10:10:50 AM »

No Cars for Moose!

lazs2 · « **Reply #14 on:** April 15, 2003, 10:16:59 AM »

dowding... perhaps you have info that I don't? I didn't see many reports on armed looters hitting private citizens... I did hear that citizens were defending their homes with AK's tho.

The deterant effect of armed citizens protecting their hmes is obvious to anyone.
lazs