Author Topic: Level bombing in the v1.09 era (check side arms at the door)  (Read 716 times)

Rojo

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Level bombing in the v1.09 era (check side arms at the door)
« on: November 21, 2001, 08:39:00 AM »
As version 1.09 will likely see radical changes to bombing and level bombers, I wanted to get peoples opinions and ideas on how we’d like to see such things as bomb-aiming, formation keeping, and defensive guns handled.  The only things we know for sure at this point are a) that some (but not necessarily all) bombers will now be launched in groups of four, with a single pilot controlling all four; and b) that dispersion will be added to the fall of bombs.  As with most tidbits released by HTC regarding future changes to Aces High, these have generated a plethora of additional questions.  Setting aside the question of what purpose those bombers will have in the MA (which has been discussed ad nausea in other posts), let’s get some ideas out there for HTC to consider.

First, I’d like to see the option of launching either as a flight of four or as a single aircraft.  The player would select this before hitting a spawn button.  The reason for this is that there are mission profiles that call for low-level flights and attack profiles, which would be impractical for a flight of four aircraft in a tight formation.  The Ju-88 also needs this option, since it is designed to either level bomb or dive bomb.  It would be very difficult to program a group of four planes making dive-bombing attacks, and the other planes would be wasted anyway.

Next, how should formation integrity be handled?  By this I mean how good should the AI wingman be at maintaining formation, especially during violent evasives.  What happens when one of the AI wingmen’s aircraft is damaged and can’t keep up?  It seems to me that if an AI plane gets to far from it’s human controlled flight leader (whether due to damage or violent evasive action by the flight leader), it should probably disappear and be counted as lost.  Taking violent evasive action should cause the formation to loose integrity (to drift apart), and perhaps even present the risk of collisions between the planes in a flight.  This would provide incentive to players to keep control inputs gentle, relying on the formation’s defensive firepower to avoid destruction (as they should).

This brings us to the question of how defensive guns should be handled.  Except for ground and ship based anti-aircraft guns, HTC has studiously avoided A/I controlled armament.  Should AI gunners be allowed on the AI aircraft, or should all guns in a flight be slaved to a single human gunner (similar to how multiple guns on a single bomber are currently able to track to a human gunner’s aim point)?  Should there be allowed more than one human gunner per flight (i.e. one human gunner per AI aircraft)?  If all guns in a flight are slaved to a single human player, it would seem necessary to reduce the lethality of them.  If you only allow one human gunner per flight, but don’t slave all guns in a flight to that gunner, then you negate half the motivation for having multiple bombers per human pilot.  The decrease in level bombing accuracy must be balance by a reasonable ability to reach the target.

Lastly, what changes should be made to the bombsite?  The complaint has been made (rightly so, in my opinion) that little skill is currently required to hit targets from even extremely high altitude.  Dispersion will make it harder to hit, but the effect will be random, and still not be appreciably influenced by the bombardier’s skill.  Bombing with the Norden (or any other bombsite of the era) should require the same level of practice and experience as deflection shooting.  Wind was a major factor in level bombing, for example.  Should wind effects be included in the ballistics equation?  Part of the skill of course will be learning exactly where to place the aim-point to get the best effect from a particular size of bomb and from a particular release altitude.  So perhaps the current Norden won’t need to be changed.  Any thoughts?

Guess that’ll do to get the discussions rolling.  Let’s hear from all the buffers and would-be buffers.

Offline K West

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Level bombing in the v1.09 era (check side arms at the door)
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2001, 08:50:00 AM »
Also, what happens to the pilot should he (or she) be shot down, crash or bail? In other words what happens to the remaining "AI" flown bombers? IMO they should self destruct - if the provision is not there for the pilot to emmediatly hop to any of the remaining three planes to control.

 I say "emmediatly" because I can easily imagine a situation where a couple of pilots launch a mission together for a flight of 8 bombers. Then right after take off they both bail but the AI ignorantly drones on their own to the target. In the meantime the two fluffernutters emmediatly respawn from the same base, or one closer to the target, with yet another flight of 8 bombers and using 100% throttle they catch up to thier old flight where upon they simpy chop throttle and form one huge bomber group.

 In effect two pilots now possibly have an exponentially negative effect on the arena that equals or surpasses what they can do currently - even with any planned bomb drift or new distributed bomb damage etc etc.

 As for the new feature? Well regarding formations it would be nice if the system lets the pilot choose any of several formation types as well as the actual distance between each plane in the formation. As for Otto gunners on the AI planes? I'll just hope it is nothing like WB 2.xx and in the meantime I'll just wait to hear word from HTC on how they will implement that.
 The bombsite (bombing itself period) should be a long the lines of being more realistic. Much more. I bow to folks like Sunchaser and Jordi who have mucho experience with "B17-II" to color this subject in - if they choose to.

 Westy

[ 11-21-2001: Message edited by: O'Westy ]

Offline keyapaha

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Level bombing in the v1.09 era (check side arms at the door)
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2001, 09:14:00 AM »
rojo i agree i think u should have a choice to go as one or four bombers,also if wind is gonna play a major role i would hope we get a weather report for the target area mainly wind speed and direction as to decide weather to drop with or aginst the wind and adjust drop point accordingly. an other thing that would be neat if say you get several pilots that all launch 4 bombers maybe there needs to be manchainal problems randomly placed in the ai bombers and some would either dissappear or rtb.  anyway just a thought.

Rojo

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Level bombing in the v1.09 era (check side arms at the door)
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2001, 09:25:00 AM »
O`Westy: I couldn't agree more with your concern, and would be surprised and dissappointed if HTC actually allowed such an implementation.  Personnally, if the human pilots plane is shot down or he bails, I think he should automatically be sent to the next one in line.  That way he would have to bail out four times to voluntarly abort his mission; each plane he bails out of would of course explode as they do now.  In fact, this automatic transfer on bailing or having the plane your riding shot down is the only reasonable way to go, I think.  That way, if your aircraft is damaged and is slowing the whole flight down (or becomes too difficult to control), you can elect to bail out of it to another plane in your flight.  In effect, it's like ordering the damaged plane to leave the formation.

Offline miko2d

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Level bombing in the v1.09 era (check side arms at the door)
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2001, 10:44:00 AM »
It is likely that a human pilot will be able to jump between the planes at will in order to direct the defencive fire, bail out of a seriously damaged plane, etc.
 This way there will not be a need for the AI gunners.

 A pilot will probably be able to select a number of planes from 1 to whatever is the limit.

 The bombardieres in WWII did not have to select an alternative aiming point for windage - they entered the calculated adjustments for supposed values (altitude, speed, temperature, wind, etc) into the bombsight and then aimed as usual. So I would not expect any change from the current aiming practice - other then the bombs spreading out.

 P.S. According to Hotseat, WB already has capability for completely AI-controlled level and even tactical bombing strikes - to fill/balance the numbers and provide environment for scenarios and such.

 How about an idea much closer to AH - a fleet control, but a fleet of bombers.
 A bomber formation (10-20 planes) can be controlled just like a fleet. Pilots in a plane nearby can chose to escort/protect it and pilots far away may chose to jump in at the last/critical moment to man the guns - just like the fleet. This way a major raid could be played without having to empty the arena of the figher planes for an hour.

 miko

Offline CavemanJ

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Level bombing in the v1.09 era (check side arms at the door)
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2001, 11:05:00 AM »
I think it'll be interesting to see how it works.

One thing that concerns me is the dispersion for the eggs.  I love to the watch the History channel, especilly when they're running WWII stuff.  I can't recall ever seeing footage of a stick of bombs landing in a 'shotgun' pattern caused by some dispersion effect.  They always explode in a nice, orderly fashion in a fairly straight line.  If this bomb dispersion is anything like what's on the guns aboard the kites now the buffs will be useless.  Maybe even divebombing if they're affected by it too.  And let's not forget the lack of blast radius.  I've dropped 1k eggs on armor units sitting and firing and they have taken no apparent damage from less than a direct hit.  Been many times I've gone plinking with 1k eggs only to drop the first egg, look over my shoulder on the pull out, and see the vehicle sitting there still firing on the edge of the crater (no, it wasn't moving when I dropped the egg).

Defensive guns also causes a slight raise of the old eyebrow.  Will it be AI gunners?  If so, if it has the same kind of code as the ground-based field guns then it will be pure suicide to try any kind of attack on an AI buff.  The faster you  move and harder you jink the easier it is for the fiend guns to get you (while you can turn lazy 140mph circles in the ack nearly all day).

hmm.. buffs that are immune to attack but can't hit spit cause of over done dispersion....  hope this doesn't lead to that

Offline Nifty

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Level bombing in the v1.09 era (check side arms at the door)
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2001, 11:15:00 AM »
well, get 4 bomber pilots under the proposed 1.09 system and you've got a flight of 16 B-17s.  That's significant.  Get the DHBG on a mission, and that could be 40+ bombers at once right there.  Take 200 people in the arena. say 20% jump into buffs.  that's now 160 fighters vs 160 buffs (4 per buff pilot).  I think that's plenty, IMO.  

Next, make the sights historically accurate.  If you're in the B17 or B26, you get the Norden.  If you're in a Lanc, you get whatever sight they used.  Same for the JU88 and the TBM, if it had a sight for level bombing (I dunno, did it?)  I think that'd be fun and add to the experience of buffing.  Putting some crosshairs on a target and pulling the trigger is just not very much fun.

as for AI, I think the AI buffs should defend themselves.  It's bad enough when two fighters bracket a buff now.  In the buff, you can only defend against one.  In the flight of 4, if there were no AI gunners, two fighters would easily shred the AI buffs.  Just come at the same time from different angles, and one of the fighters will be firing on a defenseless plane.  The AI accuracy should be tweaked so that it somewhat sucks, yet isn't a horrible shot.  Definitely shouldn't be an above average shot.  Come up slow on dead 6, and the AI will shred you.  Make intelligent fast passes, and you might get pinged, but more often than not, you'll be fine.

I think it'd be interesting of the pilot could man any of the 4 planes, and not always be in the lead position.  As to whether the player could switch between them during flight (either full control or just gunner positions) I dunno.  My thinking is, if the player is always in the lead plane, and can't jump to other planes, then fighters will go for the AI buffs if the AI gunner accuracy is below average.  If the buff player can jump around, the fighters don't know which is pilot controlled.

I agree with formation integrity in Rojo's post.
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Offline popeye

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Level bombing in the v1.09 era (check side arms at the door)
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2001, 11:25:00 AM »
"AI accuracy should be tweaked so that it somewhat sucks, yet isn't a horrible shot. Definitely shouldn't be an above average shot."

Ah....there's the rub.    ;)
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Offline Seeker

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Level bombing in the v1.09 era (check side arms at the door)
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2001, 11:42:00 AM »
no AI Gunners!

If I wanted that I'd be playing EAW.

Offline humble

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Level bombing in the v1.09 era (check side arms at the door)
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2001, 12:05:00 PM »
This is the 1st I've heard of this new wrinkle...while I'm open minded...I also have deep seated concerns. Buffs are already overmodeled from a gunnery perspective. A B17 is almost invulnerable to attack from a single pilot (assuming a decent gunner onboard). The thought of "quads" is frightening...it makes any kind of solo attack pure suicide. This game started as a flight sim focused on air to air combat (going back to AW dos)...yes bombers have a place and expanded game play is great...but breaking the 1 man/1 plane standard is going to lead to rubican of sorts....

The end of the beginning....or the beginning of the end.

Are we building a tactical 1st person flight sim...with expanded capabilities...or a stratigic simulation...when will I have my tank platoons to face the tiger 2...or my fighter squads to face the 100+ bomber stream that will be coming soon. This is easily the best game/best community I've been exposed to and I'm certainly here to stay...but I'd love to fly and fight...not drum up my AI hordes and go forth...just my 2 cents.

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Offline Nefarious

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Level bombing in the v1.09 era (check side arms at the door)
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2001, 12:18:00 PM »
NO AI!!!!NO AI!!!!NO AI!!!!

Allow more crewmen to man multicrew bombers!!
Say, enough to man all the guns. And when killing a bomber show how many people were inside of it and show everyone who died on kill counter.And if a gunner pos is destroyed the player manning that gun at that time would be dead.

Thats all i have problems with. Maybe with bombing accuaracy, but hey, Im not worrying
about it. Actually leave the Laser/Norden with this new start system bombers need all the accuaracy they can get.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Rojo

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Level bombing in the v1.09 era (check side arms at the door)
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2001, 12:25:00 PM »
Humble: Read the interview with HiTech at http://www.wargamer.com  for the source of the above information.  There's some other interesting nuggets there, too.

As for you reservations, they are understandable and probably shared by many. I am both excited and nervouse about the possiblities here.  However, I've got faith that HTC will be responsive to player feedback as this is introduced.  This idea has been suggested many times before, and I am heartened that HTC is willing to give it a try.

Offline Sunchaser

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Level bombing in the v1.09 era (check side arms at the door)
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2001, 12:41:00 PM »
First, thanks Westy.
I am sure some others actually are way ahead of me in what should be regarding bombers.

I am also sure HTC has pretty much decided what will be happening in 1.09 and as long as it includes making the B17 look better I will be OK.

I fear bombers are going to be much more controversial as soon as the first 4 Lanc formation controlled by 1 person at 30K levels the local furball field in 1 pass.

Auto gunning in AI bombers, no matter how implemented, will cause problems.

I have always supported more realistic sighting and bombing accuracy and am glad HTC has evolved to a point where some of the less important aspects of this great game can be addressed.

As a strat proponent (sounds way cooler than strat dweeb, eh?) I applaude any effort to enhance my bombing experience and irritate fighter guys.

Offline Kieran

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Level bombing in the v1.09 era (check side arms at the door)
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2001, 01:02:00 PM »
Can you imagine the ackstars raising off harried fields in defense. Two horrible words: ack star.  :(

Offline Nifty

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Level bombing in the v1.09 era (check side arms at the door)
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2001, 01:11:00 PM »
*shrugs*  ackstars lifting off are the easiest to vulch...  slow and big targets.   :)
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