Author Topic: Hell, I'll bet this guy has gotta be black....  (Read 3460 times)

blue1

  • Guest
Hell, I'll bet this guy has gotta be black....
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2003, 09:11:57 PM »
Grunhertz. I'll spell it out for you. YOU would not have started this thread if the guy was white. You started this thread to make yet another point. The point you want to make is that white men ie YOU are being discriminated against for being white. You wanted to make the point the black men get preferential treatment because they are black. That may even be true and in the case you mentioned it's quite possible, even likely.

Meanwhile in the real world, us white men have most of the good jobs, the high paid jobs, we are the Chief Executives. We are the cops and the lawyer and the decision makers and we are the people who look around and realize that we, the white men control everything and that over the years we have prevented other races and women from getting good jobs or even jobs at all. We looked down on others and make jokes about them and highlight situations where other races screwed up or did wrong.

So we looked at that and decided that this was racist and that holding back women was sexist. We made a few changes to make things fairer. It didn't always work and some people abused the system, others took advantage and quite a few found themselves in jobs they were no good at.  But it worked for some and now we no longer keep slaves and force women to leave their jobs when they got pregnant or even just got  married.

Perhaps you would prefer the old ways Grunherz?

But hey look around you! What's really changed? We white men still control everything, we have the money and the power. We are the Politicians, the Judges, the Lawyers, the Chief Executives, the Cops, the Supervisors, the Doctors, Dentists and Military Brass.  We paid lip service to equality. Some of us white guys lost out but most are doing very well thank you.

That is the reality.  

And now I know I will be criticised for attacking you rather than your opinions but the two are inseperable.

The main thing about this thread is that it confirms what has become become obvious from all your rantings on this site.

You are, and I choose my words very carefully, a racist and a fascist. You are a super patriot, an American supremacist who isn't even American. You are a foreigner who went to America and simply doesn't understand what America is all about. But you spout your bile in some form of misguided attempt to establish your 'Americanism'.  What's wrong? Are you afraid they will kick you out if you don't continuously spout what you think Americans want to hear? America is not a totalitarian state yet, you should have left all that behind in the Balkans. Why did you bring the Balkan mentality to America? It started wars and killed thousands there. You of all people should know that.


Let me suggest something radical, go and read the American constitution, written by a bunch of bleeding heart liberals who had their hearts set of 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' and all that nonsense. They wanted a country where everyone had a chance. They wanted freedom and tolerance and equality. There isn't an addendum saying 'except for non whites and women'.  They wanted to get away from the bitter bigotry and rivalries of old Europe.  What fools they were. (Or were they?)

Have you heard this phrase 'It's a free country' Of course that means you too can have any opinion you like.  You though, abuse the privilege along with one or two others here.

It seems you have a lot to learn about being American.

Offline Sixpence

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5265
      • http://www.onpoi.net/ah/index.php
Hell, I'll bet this guy has gotta be black....
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2003, 09:17:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
Any bets on how long till this thread gets locked?


It's gone on too long already. There are less discriminatory ways to express your views on affirmative action.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Batz

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3470
      • http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/4JG53/
Hell, I'll bet this guy has gotta be black....
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2003, 09:28:05 PM »
Whenever some idiot points to the founding fathers or to the constution in such a fashion as below

Quote
Let me suggest something radical, go and read the American constitution, written by a bunch of bleeding heart liberals who had their hearts set of 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' and all that nonsense. They wanted a country where everyone had a chance. They wanted freedom and tolerance and equality. There isn't an addendum saying 'except for non whites and women'. They wanted to get away from the bitter bigotry and rivalries of old Europe. What fools they were. (Or were they?)


just shows how ignorant they are. The US constitution originally defined "man" by percentage of white blood they had. It wasnt a broad sweeping statement that applied to anyone. It referred to land owning white men.

The constitution replaced the English monarchy with an oligarchy of mostly wealthy white land owners and it took a war to begin to change that.

There may have not been an amendment specifically excluding women and others but there was one put in place to include them.

Gruen maybe all the things you described but you are a self rightious idiot who doesnt know wtf hes talking about. You may feel guilty about being white but if you only knew American History you could find whole veins of untapped guilt just waiting on you.

Offline Bodhi

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8698
Hell, I'll bet this guy has gotta be black....
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2003, 09:38:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by blue1
You are a super patriot, an American supremacist who isn't even American. You are a foreigner who went to America and simply doesn't understand what America is all about.......

........Why did you bring the Balkan mentality to America? It started wars and killed thousands there. You of all people should know that.

Let me suggest something radical, go and read the American constitution, written by a bunch of bleeding heart liberals who had their hearts set of 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' and all that nonsense. They wanted a country where everyone had a chance. They wanted freedom and tolerance and equality. There isn't an addendum saying 'except for non whites and women'.  They wanted to get away from the bitter bigotry and rivalries of old Europe.  What fools they were. (Or were they?)

Have you heard this phrase 'It's a free country' Of course that means you too can have any opinion you like.  You though, abuse the privilege along with one or two others here.

It seems you have a lot to learn about being American.



Ahh Blue your little tirade lost all respect no matter how much it started out with on a few counts with me...

#1.  The man (Grunherz) is an American now.  He has immigrated, and become a citizen, and no matter how much his opinions and / or ideas grate you, don't ever try and take that away from another citizen of this country.  Just because you have the fortune to have been born here, Grunherz had the desire and drive to seek a better life for himself, and hence, it was granted to him because he came here and asked for a chance.

#2.  Don't blame all the racism on him because of what goes on in the Balkans.  THe troubles there are far beyond one man, and actually goes back to the friggin crusades when the Christians tried to erradicate the Muslims.  That alone has gone far beyond racism ever has in this country, but it is not his fault.

#3.  Since when did "liberals" write the constitution, or are liberals now gun totin revolutionaries that over threw a corrupt occupation over taxation and representation issues (two huge fug ups of the liberals).

#4.  Don't ever tell another American he has a lot to learn to be "an american"  THat just is not your right and it makes my blood curdle to hear you say that.  Get off your high horse, and just disagree with him rather than say he has to "learn" and / earn his right to be here... that's just plain bullsh*t!

Otherwise, while I think he led off the title wrong, he touched an extremely sensitive subject in this country which is affirmative action... which is simply reverse-discrimination, that needs to be stopped, or "racism" will continue to get worse.
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
Hell, I'll bet this guy has gotta be black....
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2003, 09:46:06 PM »
Well was I wrong when I assumed he would be a minority? Nope. Why black? Well by his name he wasnt a woman, he wasnt asian he wasnt hispanic and with the particular spelling of "Jayson" with a "y" which I have most often seen black guys use I assumed, from that experience, that  he was black. So the whole black thing was purely coincidental on the particualrs of his case - I guessed right. Knowing yoiu guys it was a mistake titling the thread the way I did - I just opened myself to easy attacks. if any black person was offended then I want yoiu to know that was not the intent - if any guilty white person was offended, then who cares. :D

Now Blue seems to think I'm a racist... Why is that blue? Is it because I disagree with some negative aspects of outreach/affirmitive action programs? Is it because I criticized this newspaper? Because if thats all then you are right, you are attacking me and not the argument.

Tell me this how does the obvously lax handling this man recieved help qualified black proffesionals advance in the workplace? Look at the response from you guys in this very thread. I NEVER said once that I think blacks are bad journalists yet so many of you jumped to that conclusion - why?  Perhaps that reflects on your prejudices? Perhaps thats indicative of excatly what I am arguing - that these outreach programs when handled badly and abused prove terrible for blacks and minorities.

By the strenght of your reactions I'll assume you agree that you also feel he was given prefewrential treatment - hell a few of you openly disregarded his poor performance and lies on account of his stories being good reads.  But that doesnt make a journalist, it takes integrity and honesty. And in this case it seems those virtues took a back seat to political and public relatuions expediancy.

This thread is very funny in its own way, you know why? All of you largely appear agree with me on the likely facts yet some of you seem outraged that I brought up and personally attack me for it - and that in itself is very very telling.

The problem is in you, in your own insecurites and uneasiness about the issue. One only has to read blue's post to see how obvious that is. And there is nothing wrong with that, it is acomplicated issue, it is an imprtant socioecomonic topic to discuss and as we have seen in this thread one is likely to be attacked and called names for bringing this up  - and thats why it is impprtant to do so.

Maybe I'm wrong but I dont think this thread should be locked up, thats what some want and thats prolly why the personal attacks and name calling satarted up but thats silly and and unnecessary. The real issuue wil not be discussed openly like that and I wont throw away this opportuity to discuss it.

So lets have your opinions here, feel free to contribute positvely.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2003, 09:48:47 PM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline GrimCO

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 721
      • http://www.GrimsReapers.com
Hell, I'll bet this guy has gotta be black....
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2003, 10:10:51 PM »
Let me present the opposite perspective.

I was a white police officer working in a predominantly black department for 7 years...  WE were the minority there.

We had a white police officer get fired for beating up someone in a nightclub while he was off duty. He had a long history of unacceptable behavior including several domestic violence related calls to his residence, and excessive force complaints during arrests he had made. This guy was absolutely the worst possible person that should be wearing a badge.

At any rate, they finally fired the guy. Two years later he won a lawsuit based upon "reverse discrimination", got his job back, and won $250,000 in damages from the Police Department as well. His main defense was that affirmative action related rights were denied him because was the minority at that particular police department even though he was white.

This guy was an absolute love muffin, and should have been fired long before he actually was. Yet he got his job back and won a ton of money as well.

Anyone who thinks affirmative action isn't a good idea gone bad is totally blind. It's taken advantage of in the worst possible ways.

Offline Arfann

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 609
Re: Hell, I'll bet this guy has gotta be black....
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2003, 10:25:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
was my thought as I read through this article and sure enough he was..  I for one cant think of one other reason this con job was allowed to go on for so long with all those red flags and oddities except for thew fcat that he was black and part of an outreach program. Truly despicable lazy behavior on the part of his employers and this is sort of stuff that gives outreach programs a bad name.

Read for yourself....

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/05/10/ny.times.reporter/index.html


Please learn to read, then read "The Peter Principle". This crap goes on and on regardless of race, color or creed. Only one with an agenda would ascribe race as a cause here.

blue1

  • Guest
Hell, I'll bet this guy has gotta be black....
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2003, 10:26:42 PM »
A couple of points in reply,

Batz,
I know damm well the US Constitution was originally written by land owning white men for land owning white men. That doesn't take away from the what it says or what it means now.

I'm no idiot and I have no guilt about  being born white. None whatsoever. I'm pleased to have been born white male. I don't have to put up with all the BS other people have to put up with. I can just get on with my life as I see fit and all my failures and successes are my own.

Bodhi,
See above, I was being a bit sarcastic when I said liberals. But they were in fact liberals of their times. There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what a liberal is. So I suggest you look it up in a dictionary. It might surprise you.


It takes more than a passport stamped 'American citizen' to make someone American. Anybody can become an American citizen. That's a long way from what it means to be an American. It's as much a state of mind as anything.  Not everyone makes the leap not even people born in the USA.  


Grunherz,
I refer to the above, whatever the flaws of the affirmative action programme and they are legion. It changes nothing. The subject and example was simply a hook to hang your views onto.  You are racist because you assumed the man was black before you knew he was. It's as simple as that. That is racism. Your biggest problem is that you cannot separate your bias and prejudice from the facts. In fact you have no evidence you he was fastracked because of affirmative action. You simply assumed he was almost as soon as you assumed he was black. So this time you were right, but if it turned out he was a WASP from Connecticut who got where he was because Daddy was something in publishing, I somehow doubt you would have posted anything here because that would not have suited your agenda.
It's your assumptions and actions that make you racist no matter how valid the example. You need to see that yourself and move on from it.

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
Hell, I'll bet this guy has gotta be black....
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2003, 10:47:08 PM »
Yes my initial guess is it had something to do with an overactive affirmative action program - does that make one a racist?  What if it was a woman or a hispanic. Your basic premise is that assuming some aa program gone  wild was at fault makes me racist...  Thats ludicrous..

Offline Lance

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1316
Hell, I'll bet this guy has gotta be black....
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2003, 11:10:22 PM »
Quote
I for one cant think of one other reason this con job was allowed to go on for so long with all those red flags and oddities except for thew fcat that he was black and part of an outreach program.


So, what did you base that opinion on, Grun?  Its certainly not on anything reported in the article, which stated:

Quote
Blair, who is black, came to the Times as part of an internship program designed to help the paper attract more minority reporters. Times officials insisted that fact had nothing to do with his subsequent hiring and quick rise to full reporter status, despite editors' concerns about his work.


Since the article flatly states differently, your opinion that this guy was advanced and tolerated because he was black can only come from one source -- your own prejudices.  That is why people are calling you a racist.

As for the idea that there can be no other reason that such an employee would be tolerated and promoted, well, that is bull****.  This guy was a con man, and making people believe in them is what con men do.  There are plenty of non-black con men that have been so good as to make a rise before their fall when their fraud was discovered.

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
Hell, I'll bet this guy has gotta be black....
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2003, 11:25:13 PM »
I never said that blacks cannot be good reporters - why on earth do people want to think that? Do people actully think thats what I beleve? Where have I said that?

My guess was that the most obvious reason he was given the spacial treatment was so he could be lauded as an AA sucess story by times senior management - and he was used just in such a way when times exec literally bragged about him to black advocay groups. This is a a fact and you can look it up.

My belief is that in large part he was allowed these discrestions because he was being useful as a PR tool by times executives and firing him earlier for his many known outright lies would have looked bad.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2003, 11:27:57 PM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline Mini D

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6897
      • Fat Drunk Bastards
Hell, I'll bet this guy has gotta be black....
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2003, 11:58:07 PM »
Quote
My guess was that the most obvious reason he was given the spacial treatment was so he could be lauded as an AA sucess story by times senior management
Q: Why is that your guess
A: Bigot

Just cause you don't realize it... doesn't mean you aren't.

This isn't a story to you because a newspaper has failed to check on complaints of erronious reporting or published front page reports from someone that never conducted interviews.  Its news to you because it was done by a black man that was hired under AA.

Once again in case you missed it...

A: Bigot

MiniD

Offline -tronski-

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2825
Hell, I'll bet this guy has gotta be black....
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2003, 11:59:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
My guess was that the most obvious reason he was given the spacial treatment was so he could be lauded as an AA sucess story by times senior management - and he was used just in such a way when times exec literally bragged about him to black advocay groups. This is a a fact and you can look it up.

My belief is that in large part he was allowed these discrestions because he was being useful as a PR tool by times executives and firing him earlier for his many known outright lies would have looked bad.


The report never stated once he was used as PR for the times, or lauded as a success for the intake program, nor does it state the paper used him as an ethnic slant for his stories.

It would then seem the particular fact of his colour is irrelevant, apart from how he got his start.

 Tronsky
God created Arrakis to train the faithful

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
Hell, I'll bet this guy has gotta be black....
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2003, 12:27:22 AM »
So MiniD somebody cant be guessing thats AA was a problem in this case without being a bigot?  Is that particular to this example or is a broad opinion you hold about criticism of AA?

-tronski-

I read other articles that say so very clearly. Scroll down this page - its there among others.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2082661/#blair



Basically this comes down to your opionon about AA, it seems that a few of the staunch AA defenders only argument is calling me a racist.  Although I dont like it because its not true and because its a very damaging tag ultimately such name calling is meaningless and proves the weakness of your arguments.  

Look if you guys think being skeptical of certain excesses of AA thinking, like I think were at work here, makes me racist then thats your problem. Hell even in my first post I clearly said abuses like this give outrueach AA programs a bad name - I didnt even say anything against AA in general.  I just think this time it screwed up and allowe people to let this guy get away with repeated serious abuses while still promoting him.

Offline Mini D

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6897
      • Fat Drunk Bastards
Hell, I'll bet this guy has gotta be black....
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2003, 12:38:19 AM »
My first thought when I read this article was of the "French help Iraqi officials to escape?" thread that was started citing the Washington post in a story that has not been substantiated nor reported by another news agency since.  Then my thoughts turned to a "Jessica Lynch... Hero? Liar? Pawn?" post on AGW where someone was using obviously fabricated stories from various newspapers the day after her rescue to "debunk" the scenario, as if she had anything to do with them.  Then it turned to "Don't these guys have fact checkers?" The last thing I thought was "I wonder if weazel would still quote him."

Somehow, the whole thing has since been spun into "Affirmative action caused this!"  I got news for you Grun, in the middle of all your blind bigotted rage, you've failed to realize too much.  The NYT printed front page stories without checking facts.  I seriously doubt that was because the author was black and they didn't want to offend him (Oh yeah... but this is an AA thing).  

Kudos for the NYT for displacing blame on federal regulations as opposed to some of the sloppiest edditing ever seen.  Kudos to you for sucking it up like the biggoted hate monger they were hoping to support them.

And just so we're very clear here grun... I'm talking about you.

MiniD
« Last Edit: May 12, 2003, 02:10:46 AM by Mini D »