HTC.. New defaults for the SEA arena?

[Pyro]

 

Originally posted by Ram1:

I think its shortsighted to think the numbers can't support 2 arenas, instead I would be thinking about how an Axis/Allied arena could draw new pilots into the Sim.

The success of this arena in Warbirds should of opened some eyes, its what many historical oriented virtual pilots have been looking for. Its not perfect, but its much better then the free for all type arenas.

Actually, it would shortsighted to describe the new WarBirds arena as a success just yet.  There's a good quote in the movie Pulp Fiction about celebrating success before you've actually succeeded.  Give it two or three months and then come back and punt this topic.




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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

[Badger]

Hi Pyro.....

You make some excellent historical points. <Salute>

We've been into this discussion on our business focus group under one of our mandated topics of "Product packaging, arena and player pricing options."

I commented there that "Perhaps it simply means that even if one likes AH for its program merits, it isn't the product I should be flying to meet my own personal entertainment needs.  Whereas, WB is certainly not the current technology state program I want to fly, but I do find it enjoyable from an immersion and entertainment perspective.  There's a business moral here someplace that these on-line game companies should get out of these kinds of discussions when they are designing their products."

It could be as simple as allowing time and maturity to build enough critical mass to justify separation of demographic interests by arena.  After all, HTC has just gone through it's very first corporate anniversary and the actual product has only been in production code for approximately seven months.  It does feel though like I've been given a Formula One car and then told that I'll be living in downtown Tokyo as a place to drive it.  

I used to train with a bunch of guys who wore an insignia that said "Who Dares Wins".  I guess I've always believed that it is better to constantly engage in new and even repeated risks in business product development, as opposed to reflecting on the past as a bell weather indicator of what will happen in the future if one tries something over again in a different time and place.  History doesn't necessarily repeat itself.  

Best of luck.

Regards,
Badger

Looking for a different kind of environment to discuss your favorite on-line flight simulator?
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[Ram1]

 

Originally posted by Pyro:
Actually, it would shortsighted to describe the new WarBirds arena as a success just yet.  There's a good quote in the movie Pulp Fiction about celebrating success before you've actually succeeded.  Give it two or three months and then come back and punt this topic.

In my best Arnold impersonation
"I'll be back"  

Ram1

[This message has been edited by Ram1 (edited 08-03-2000).]

[Maniac]

Sure ill agree that the player base might be an bit to small for an axies vs allied arena now...

But comparing the HA in WB to an eventual Axis vs Allies arena here? not much similarities there...

We got flatrate here + the zoom capability for an non icon environment (if it was gonna be no icons).

"OK, so tell me. What's to keep you from going in there right now and flying axis and allies or any other setup you want?"

The arena needs to say "Axis vs Allies" or something similar to get people in to it. Many people dont even know what "Special Events Arena" are for.. in short we need an describing name for such an arena to draw an crowd...

Well also if i go in there right now, the fields would not be set up for axis vs allies right?

So one of the reasons why we who are fed up with the fantasy arena concept, dont get this second arena is because we have to entertain the ones who still thinks the fantasy arena are fun?

Regards.




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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-

[Hangtime]

Good points, Pyro. I recall the circumstances you describe.

I don't have a solution.. just a suggestion.

On peak hours; with more than 100 people on main; my connects get screwed with micro warping, serverlag, textlag,  and the disco situation gets critical. I see and talk to many others having the same issues... and it seems relative to server loading. Regardless of the reason.. it seems that more than 80-100 people get on the Main Arena server; conditions in the main get dismal.

This happens virtually every friday and saturday night; and most sunday nights till about 2:00am Eastern.

Why not get the SEA configured for allied/axis operations on a trial basis on these three days?? It'll take some of the overstocked Main Arena pilots into SEA; and really; the SEA will probably only have 20-25 pilots in it; making the MAIN a pleasure to fly in agagin.

Just a thought.. and thanks all for your considered replys.

Hang

[Sharky]

Hi all,

Sorry Pyro but I have to disagree with ya on the HA in WB.  Yes it was full when you had it only a couple of days a week and empty when it went 24/7.  The reason however is very plain to me and others and has been (sorry raml) ignored by the folks that run it.

The problem with the HA is the icon settings.  Noone wants to fly all over hell looking for a fight and then when they find a con blow all their alt and position only to find they are attacking a friendly.  The HA is empty because it is just to much of a pain in the ass.  Additionally with the issues of a lot of the LW plane set in WB it's very hard to get a good showing by the LW.

As for the WWII arena, or whatever it's called now in WB.  Sorry again pyro, but it's going to kill the MA now and forever.  All the great features of the HA without the icon hassles.  Especially with Sick's generations scheme in place, the only possible thing I could see hurting the WWII arena in WB is still the disparity in AC performance issues, both in FM and fire power between the Axis and Allied aircraft, especially in the late war era.

I could see the arguement that AH doesn't have the player base to support two full time arenas right now, (don't think any sim ever will.  People will fly where everyone else is flying) so just toejamcan the MA and set up a Axis vs Allies arena and call it good.

 

OK, so tell me. What's to keep you from going in there right now and flying axis and allies or any other setup you want?

Because like you said with the MA already established people will gravitate to the arena with the people already in it.  I submit to you that why not this?  Dump the arenas (kick everyone out) set the Main to Allied to Axis, make it the default log in arena and set the SEA to the current MA setting and see how many people move to the SEA.

Pyro, you know I support you guys at HTC 100% and think your doing a great job with a great sim.  But at the same time I think the time has come to break out of the old mold of the MA and move to a more historical environment.

Sharky

[StSanta]

Heh, being a European, there are often not more than 30 guys online. 30 seems minimum for fun.

I've still managed to find fights. Some of the *best* fights have been when only 30 people have been online.

Why is this? Well, two forces take off, meet, tangle and that's it. No reinforcements, no person vulching in as the figh is just about over, only to be vulched in turn. Or at least not to the extent that it happens when 100+ players are online. Also the reason I like the SEA; concentrated battles between group, not individuals.

But, in general, the more the merrier.

HT will give us an historical arena with time, I have no doubt. And, SEA is really kicking off now.

I'll give HTC time. They've come so far in such a short time that they've deserved it.

If they only could look into or reply to my 109 "prop drag side effects" question  



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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"

[gospel]

Wow!  great discussion!

It is refreshing to see the game developer active in discussions on the bbs. S! Pyro.

I re-opened my warbirds account to fly the new setup.  I am enjoying it, more so than flying aces high, even though aces high is a better product.

I am considering closing my aces high acount.  I had been waiting and hoping that a historical arena would be set up, but it looks like that will not be the case.

I realize that there are special events. But I prefer to fly in a historical type arena in an informal manner, when I want, as opposed to having to be there at a set time and being assigned a specific task.

Just my 2 cents ($29.95/ month actually)

gospel


[This message has been edited by gospel (edited 08-03-2000).]

[Wanker]

This whole discussion would be moot if AH(or any other online sim) had started from day one with the main arena configured as an "Axis vs. Allies" arena, just like the real WW2 was configured.

To this day, I fail to understand why the fantasy "Spitfire vs. Mustang vs. Corsair" setup was selected to represent a war in which none of that existed.

Furthermore, I find it interesting that those who prefer historical matchups are considered "heretics", when in fact all we want to do is be true to history.

<shrug>Different strokes for different folks, I guess.



[This message has been edited by banana (edited 08-03-2000).]

[AKSeaWulfe]

 

Originally posted by banana:
To this day, I fail to understand why the fantasy "Spitfire vs. Mustang vs. Corsair" setup was selected to represent a war in which none of that existed.

I think the reason is so that you don't have to switch countries to fly a certain plane type. Could you imagine the hell all the squads would go through? Someone's flying LW in a Axis vs Allied arena setup, then another squad mate comes on and he wants to fly a Spitfire. Well, now that's no problem if either one switches to fly with the other... BUT we'd still need one of those country switching timers so the ever-so-common numbnutz that love to switch sides every few minutes to figure out where a big raid is going and then go spoil it don't fudge the game. So, you've got a team mate on LW, and a guy on allied in the same squad. The LW guy switches allied, and he flies two or three sorties with his squad mate, then his squad mate leaves. He wants to go back to LW, OOPS!, he's on a team switching timer and still has 30minute to an hour to go. Now he's got two choices, log off, or fly allied(which he didn't want to do in the first place) for 30mins to an hour.... Well in an hour he has to go to the bar and get blitzed with his buddies. There goes his LW fun for the night. :-( Anyway, I *BELIEVE* that's where the setup came from. AW pioneered it I think, and it was highly successful.. so why dump a successful setup? CK/WB followed suit and when the same guys that created CK/WB experienced first hand how well it worked, they recreated it here.

Both a ETO Axis vs allied and PTO axis vs allied theatre would kick booty, but I like the MA too. It's a place to go to get your kicks. Besides, I think flying this "fantasy" setup as you described it, is very fun. It also leaves you feeling "I wish there was more". Then you get a special event and *BAM* it's like doing ecstasy after you've spent all your time doing a depressent. :-)

That's the best analogy I can figger out. :-)

Just one thing to think about.. Today we have an MA, tommorrow that MA may become MA Axis vs allied style, but what about next week? Will we beg for a one life to live Axis vs Allied MA? "someone just raped your sorry butt without ky jelly, you must log off for 3 hours before you can fly again!" Extreme, but it's very possible. :-)
*Digs around for his kevlar flame resistant suit*

-SW
AKSeaWulfe+

[Wanker]

I see your point, AKSeawulfe, and it would help me to understand this even more if someone can show me an example of an online sim that started out with an "Axis vs. Allies" setup, and failed.

Is this what happened to AW? Was it a failure with historical matchups, so someone came up with the "Fantasy" setup(I apologize for using the term "fantasy", but I don't know what else to call it), and that was a sudden success?

If so, well...then I guess I'm in the minority. If not, then it has never been tried before as a historical matchup from the beginning.

If the latter is true, then WW2OL will be the first real litmus test on whether the majority of the people really want to re-create history, or whether they merely want to use historical airplanes in an "anything goes" arena.

My whole point is that had HTC decided to start AH right off the bat as an Axis vs. Allies type main arena, it would still be the same success story that it has become now. In fact, I dare say that all those people flying WB's WW2 arena right now might have been HTC customers within a few weeks of going live, even such famous nay-sayers as "Mr. Aces Hobbled" Stiglr.

[AKSeaWulfe]

No sim has started out with a axis vs allied arena. But if it did, who's to say you we wouldn't be in the same position we are right now... asking HTC for a new arena because we are bored of the old. Not to mention, we don't have quite the aircraft we'd need for a axis vs allied arena. N1Ks and Zeros vs F4Us, P51s, P38s and Jugs?(not many P51s or Jugs flew in the pacific as P38s or F4Us.. BUT they flew there) Then we have Fw190A8s, Fw-190A5s, Bf-109series, but no bombers and no plane(Ju52) to capture fields with, against P51s, P38s, Jugs, Spitfires, La5s, Yaks, B17s, B26s and allies have two forms of troop transport.

So, still want that there axis vs allied arena right now, today, yesterday? :-)
I just think unless you are going to be doing pure dogfights in that arena, the germans and japs would be SOL once they start losing territory. :-)
-SW

[Westy]

"Is this what happened to AW? Was it a failure with historical matchups.."

 A major problem was with the Axis not having a good heavy bomber to compete in the land grab "fest". And than later on the Allies did not have a good weapon (actually the online pilots had a lack of ability) to combat the ME-262.  The REAL reason it was such a hogwash was it was catered to the relaxed realism crowd who are predominately "gamers."  The atmosphere and over all attitude was the equivalent of  "The Banana Splits GO Europe!"   When the B17s or the ME-262's were  finally limited to a certain number per day as a comptimise some of the "hAxoR cOolDuDeZ"  decided to have a member of their "squat" change coutnry sides and purposely auger the B17s or ME-262's to remove them from service.  Stakcing the deck in favour of the other side. And in AW you can change you online handle so they would do it "incognito."  

Honestly? The Axis need the ME-264 heavy "Amerika" bomber or the HE-177/277 to compete with the B17, B24 or Lancaster.  You can forget bringing the B-29 to an Axis-Allies arena unless you give the Axis the "Shinden" or TA-152.

  -Westy

[Wanker]

 

So, still want that there axis vs allied arena right now, today, yesterday? :-)

Well, I would have preferred it on day one when AH went live.  

As far as your plane comparison argument, I'm sure HTC would've altered which planes were created to ensure some form of equity, had there been an Axis vs. Allies setup initially.

I agree SW, nobody knows if we would be in the same boat right now had they started with Axis vs. Allies. Sure would've been an interesting gamble, eh?  

[AKSeaWulfe]

Just for the record, I'm not arguing against an Axis vs Allied arena, just offering opinions on why it would or would not be possible to create now. Also why HTC went with the fantasy main arena. I agree banana, wouldn't know unless they made it and wouldn't know how it would of been unless they had done it. Unfortunately they didn't do it, so we are only left with pondering it's success and entertainment value if they make it. It would be awesome, but I think some things would need to be slightly altered to make it more enjoyable than simply an MA with specific plane types per side. Icons ranges being a huge factor(reduce them like they said in another thread with different stages), then add more targets that require missions to take them out, etc.
Anyway, we're stuck with what we got right now so lets make the best of it.. nicely created scenarios! :-)
-SW