YakU sortie film

[Fariz]

Originally posted by Batz
Umm the 37mm wasnt an at gun. Tony Williams has stated this before. It sertainly strafed light armored and soft vehicles butit was used a2a to mostly AFAIK.
 

That is true, it was not very effective against late war armors. But that does not make a fact that it was DEVELOPED as tank jabo any less factish BTW, they say it could kill any tank which were produced prior to 1942.

You need to know russian for this, but still:

http://strelok.kiev.ua/Usylyvaia_mosch/Yak_9T___tankovyi_ystrebytel.html
http://www.1c.ru/games/IL2/air/yak9t.htm ( that is il2 web site ).
http://airsana.narod.ru/48/yak9T.htm

And so on. All russian internet sources say it is "tankovy".

[Batz]

it could pentrate 40mm of armor but at an angle and range that made it very improbrable even in 42 43.

Part of what allowed the ju87g to have the "success" it had against armor was its slow speeds. The yak 9t being made of wood was very susceptible to small arm ground fire.

As an example look at the Hurri IId. It 40mm bofors required you be close to get hits but this meant the canvas hurri would get tore up by ground fire.

Its all over the web that the mk108 was developed in response to allied bombers. But thats not right. The mk 108 and 103 were developed in the 30s when bombers were slower and unarmored.

It just make sense since at the time the 9t was being developed so was the il2. With 32 rpg, light construction, small window to land hits doesnt seem like much of tank buster. I know the ju87g had less ammo but the guns on the g cant be comparted to the NS-37.

The NS 37 could be an anti-tank gun. But on the yak platform it just doesnt make sense.

[Batz]

Found Tonies site on Tank busters


http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm

Of the single-engined aircraft, the Yak-9T and P-39 were not intended as ground attack planes, but they had the potential as their layouts permitted the carrying of heavy guns.

The Yak-9T, with one NS-37 mounted on the engine and a synchronised 12.7mm Berezin, was a good fighter well able to look after itself, but it wasn't perfect in the anti-tank role. The gun's heavy recoil pushed the nose out of alignment, so only two or three shots could be fired before the pilot had to correct the aim, and it carried insufficient armour to protect its vulnerable engine cooling system from ground fire (it took only a single bullet to penetrate the radiator or coolant lines of a liquid-cooled engine to ensure that the plane would not return to base). There was also room behind the engine for only 32 rounds of cannon ammunition. Our 'ideal' gun would be a bit lighter, and the ammunition would be slightly smaller, allowing weight and space for more armour and ammunition (or alternatively an additional Berezin). However, to provide the kind of comprehensive armour protection carried by the Il-2 would probably have crippled the performance.

[Batz]

More From Tony

NS-37
I don't know what ammunition is assumed for the Yak-9T in the sim, but in RL it was a fighter not a ground attack plane, so normally would have carried HE - not much good against tanks.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

From this thread

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83309

I wonder if "Tankovy" is referrence to the gun not the aircraft designation. I looked up the yak 3t and 9ut both mention "Tyazhely" or "Tyazhelowooruzheny".

[Fariz]

Originally posted by Batz
Found Tonies site on Tank busters


http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm

NS-37 had special armor penetration bullets.

NS-37 were from the start developed for ground AND air role, T is tankovy, and YakT were developed to be tank buster.

What are we argueing about here?

Edit: I found 2 links where T = tyazhely, but both are from newspaper articles. I found sources which says that T were desigend for dual role, as jabo and fighter, but was not very successful jabo, so was primary used as fighter. Sure, for air to air it was loaded with HE. But for ground work it was loaded with AP.

[Batz]

I am not argue you are

The yak 9t wasnt a tank buster.

That much is clear. As Tony states the 9t didnt carry ap rounds. So hows will it bust tanks with he?

Its airframe is very susectible to ground fire, how will it survive tank busting?

Its center fire cannon and recoil caused problem with aiming and early on the recoil resulted in eng damage. How can you be a tank buster and not be able to hit your target?

The gun the NS 37 could fire ap rounds and could be used against tanks. But the yak 9 airframe was not designed for ground attack. We were discussing the aircraft designation not the capabilities of NS 37 ap rounds. Even in AH the he rounds are modelled for the 9t.

So the gun NS 37 may have been referred to as "Tankovy" but the "T" in Yak 9t most likely referred to as "Tyazhelowooruzheny / Heavily Armed".

The yak 9t was no "tank buster". Other then that theres no arguement........

[Fariz]

Originally posted by Batz
I am not argue you are

The yak 9t wasnt a tank buster.

That much is clear. As Tony states the 9t didnt carry ap rounds. So hows will it bust tanks with he?

Yeah, now I understand why Pyro is so crazy with your LW guys

NS-37 HAD AP rounds. If Tony, whoever he is, do not know it, say it to him. NS-37 AP round were called BZT, and could penetrate 40mm armor at 400m with angle 30 degrees. Hightly explosive round was OZT. T = "Tankovy", and it is not gun, but plane, Yak9T is Yak9T "Tankovy", till you will find a credential source which will say opposite.

[Fariz]

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Its center fire cannon and recoil caused problem with aiming and early on the recoil resulted in eng damage. How can you be a tank buster and not be able to hit your target?
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"When used against ground targets it were suggested to use short burst, because long one changed aiming due to recoil".

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The gun the NS 37 could fire ap rounds and could be used against tanks. But the yak 9 airframe was not designed for ground attack. We were discussing the aircraft designation not the capabilities of NS 37 ap rounds. Even in AH the he rounds are modelled for the 9t.
--------------

In AH type of rounds changes depending of target you fire at. Yak9T in AH has ap rounds modeled.

Yak9 airframe were not desigend for ground attacks? Were it designed for bomber attacks? For your information it was Yak9B, which is "bomber". It was as much sucessful in bombing role, as T is tank killing, but B still is Bomber, not Boring, Big, Baltic or something else.

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The yak 9t was no "tank buster". Other then that theres no arguement........
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It was not in fact, but it says nothing about what was the reasons of it design. I will stop this one, because I have not enough paper sources to prove one or disprove other point of view. Again, 99% of russian language internet sites says that T in yakT were "Tankovy".

[Max]

Fariz -

Great gunnery and SA!

What I wanna know is this...anytime I fly within 2k of a GV, parts start falling off my ride. You buzzed a dozen of 'em over and over without a scratch. What's the trick?

DmdMax

[Scootter]

Originally posted by DMax
Fariz -

Great gunnery and SA!

What I wanna know is this...anytime I fly within 2k of a GV, parts start falling off my ride. You buzzed a dozen of 'em over and over without a scratch. What's the trick?

DmdMax

Warps and Lag!?

[Fariz]

Originally posted by DMax
Fariz -

Great gunnery and SA!

What I wanna know is this...anytime I fly within 2k of a GV, parts start falling off my ride. You buzzed a dozen of 'em over and over without a scratch. What's the trick?

DmdMax

This one was lucky, but also I looked for a time when their attention were posibly at some other target. They need to turn their guns, adjust, fire etc. If you fast, and do not fly straight all the time, they not hit you that often.

[Batz]

Tony Williams is the author of

Flying Guns: World War II

Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1933-1945

by Emmanuel Gustin and Anthony G Williams

and

Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces

by Anthony G Williams

Heres his website

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/

Heres his forum

http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

Emmanuel Gustin's website is here

http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-in.html

Heres the part of site dealing with ww2 fighters

http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-fi.html

Btw you asked for sources. I told you them in my above answers.

If Tony and Emmanual arent good enough let me know I'll provide more.

Who said the NS 37 didnt have AP rounds? I quoted Mr. Williams as stating that the 9T normally carried HE rounds. 40mm penetration at 400m at 30 degrees is a small window to aim shots. Add that with the recoil it would be all but impossible to get hits. Are you saying the 9t busted tanks with HE?

How about a link to site stating the ammo load out of the 9t included AP. How about a link to site that has a pilot anecdote or mission report that has the 9t attacking armor columns?

I used an online translator to read those 3 links you provided. Although online translators are sloppy and inadequate they far better then my Cyrillic.

From this site

http://airsana.narod.ru/48/yak9T.htm

At the buttom

В заключении  по войсковым испытаниям  отмечалось,  что:

    1) самолет Як-9Т  является нужным для ВВС КА  истребителем;

    2) при формировании частей истребительной авиации  полки целесообразно делать смешанными,  включающими  в свой состав 30...50% самолетов "Як" с обычным вооружением и 70...50% самолетов с пушкой 37 мм;

    3) самолетами Як-9Т целесообразно вооружать части с летным составом, хорошо владеющим воздушной стрельбой.  Летчик, летающий на Як-9Т, должен быть своего рода воздушным снайпером  и уметь поражать врага наверняка  -  с первого выстрела.

    Создание в разгар войны Як-9Т  с  мощной  скорострельной пушкой калибра 37 мм и его быстрое освоение в производстве и в эксплуатации сыграло большую роль в завоевании нашей авиацией превосходства в воздухе.

In the conclusion on army tests it was marked, that:

1) plane Jak-9T is the fighter necessary for Air Forces КА;

2) at formation of parts истребительной it is expedient to aircraft of a shelf to do(make) the mixed, 30. 50 % of planes " Як " including in the structure with conventional armaments and 70. 50 % of planes with a gun of 37 mm;

3) it is expedient to arm with planes Jak-9T parts with летным the structure well owning air shooting. The pilot flying on Як-9Т, should be some kind of the air sniper and be able to amaze the enemy for certain - from the first shot.

Creation with powerful скорострельной a gun of calibre of 37 mm and his(its) fast development in manufacture and in operation has played heat of war Як-9Т the big role in a gain our aircraft of the air superiority.

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems that the conclusion is the 9t played a good role along with the yak 9 (mentioning a mix of the 2) in gaining air superiority. It mentions the yak 9t pilot should be a good shot and could surprise the enemy with its cannon.

The whole article deals with a2a fighting with a brief mention of AP rounds having the ability to knock out tanks at 500m at 45 degrees.

This site

http://www.1c.ru/games/IL2/air/yak9t.htm

contains the same as the english FB site and offers no more then general info.

In the last site

http://strelok.kiev.ua/Usylyvaia_mosch/Yak_9T___tankovyi_ystrebytel.html

It discusses the  possibility of the NS 37 ap rounds knocking out tanks but it doesnt offer more then

А.Б.Широкорадом в очерке "История авиационного вооружения", в некоторых боевых операциях потери танков противника от огня авиации доходили до 10-15% общего числа потерь от всех видов оружия.

A.B.Shirokoradom in a sketch " the History of aviation arms ", in some fighting operations of loss of tanks of the opponent from fire of aircraft reached Up to 10-15 % The general(common) number of losses from all kinds of the weapon.

Which is quite unbelievable that 15% of tanks could be lost from strafing. I can post links to battle field assesments on the west front done by the brits that show no where near 15%. But thats here nor there. It doesnt mention what percentage of these losses were attributed to the yak 9t.

I never said the NS 37 didnt have ap or that ap couldnt knock out tanks. I said that the yak 9t wasnt a tank buster. Maybe Boroda will stumble into this thread and settle it.

[Batz]

BTW the B doesnt mean tank busting either

The lw had 109-e4/b and e7/b (bomber) but didnt attack tanks. They were used as fast bombers. Like the yak9b.......

Btw But the "B" did always mean "bomber" How about the yak 1b? How about yak7b? They werent bombers.

The yak9t didnt carry bombs or rockets so ground attack including bombing.

The "Yak-9B", where "B" stood for "Bombardirovschik / Fighter-Bomber", was an interesting attack aircraft that first flew in early 1944. This machine stored four 100 kilogram (220 pound) FAB 100 bombs or four clusters of two kilogram (4.4 pound) PTAB hollow-charge anti-armor bomblets, stored near-vertically in the fuselage behind the pilot's seat in a 2x2 arrangement.


The Yak-9B was put into limited production and combat evaluation. It was used as a precision-strike weapon to attack heavily-defended targets, but did not prove successful enough to be put into wide-scale production. Loading the bombs was a nuisance for armorers; the machine was so heavily laden as to be a danger to get off the ground; and the pilot had no bombsight. The VVS report back to the factory concluded: "Pilots did not want to fly the aircraft. The Chief Designer must redesign the aeroplane." That was effectively the end of the matter.

Hardy a good design for "ground attack".

http://www.vectorsite.net/avyak1.html

Anyway call it what you want

Folks call still call the 109 f series franz but I know its Fritz

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Fariz
Some coments.

Many Yak9U were build with VK-107А. They were faster and heavier than VK105PF2 planes. I still not sure which one we have in AH, but according to weight of plane and speed we probably have VK-107A one.

I believe that some Yak-3s appeared towards the end of the war with the VK-107A as well.

My regards,

Widewing

[Fariz]

Originally posted by Batz
Anyway call it what you want

That is not what I want to call it, that is what its name.

It is name is Tankovy.

Put this: "Як 9Т танковый"

into the yandex.ru, and count the numbers of hits.

Then put this: "Як 9Т тяжелый"
Or this: "Як 9Т тяжеловооруженный"

And count again. If you will not get it even after then, sorry.