Author Topic: For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)  (Read 10134 times)

Offline Kweassa

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Modifications to existing perk planes
---------------------------------------------
Me262: 100 points
Spitfire14: 20 points
Tempest5: 30 points
F4U-4: 20 points
Ta152H-1: 10 points
F4U-1C: 8 points
Me163B: 70 points
Ar234: 50 points


Synopsis on modified perk values:

 The argument for the Ta152 and the Spit14 is already well known, as the MA environment heavily relies on massive and chaotic engagements referred to as 'furballs'. Spit14s are much too vulnerable to afford the expensive 60 point perk price as they aren't particularly fast at low altitudes, and its amazing climb performance is limited by the short WEP periods. Ta152 lacks so much in conventional 'maneuverability' and acceleration to ever be used under certain altitudes.

 The same argument as Spit14s and Ta152s can be made for the F4U-4.

 The over abundance of Me163Bs near HQ fields, which bomber pilots complain about, are well noted and reasonable. The price should be increased.

 The perks on the F4U-1C and the Ar234, is in my opinion adequate. It has regulated the C-hog scourge very well, and the fact that the Ar234 is a jet bomber, is enough for its 50 point cost.  

 The costs for the Me262 and the Tempest 5 has been suggested to be cut down to about 50%,  based on the grounds that even a low perk price is adequate for regulating hoardes of planes(as been proven in the case of the C-hog - 8 points, neutralized the scourge phenomenon in its entirety!)

 It takes average pilots a long time to earn 100 points - in an hour, I earn about 5~6 fighter perk points when I'm doing good. Maybe 8~10 if lucky. It takes almost a week for me to earn 100 points. For average pilots, even 30~40 perk points are pretty much a heavy burden.

 As the vast number of people are always 'average', if the objective of perk prices is to regulate hoardes of super performance planes breaking arena balance, even 30points for the Tempest, and 100 points for the 262, is enough.

 As it is now, only a few people who can manage to earn massive perks in a day will ever get to fly the 262 or the Tempest - people who can afford and shrug off maybe one, two losses of those expensive planes - and even they fly it only when it is particularly safe for them.


...


Newly perked planes
--------------------------
LA-7: 5 points
TYPHOON: 3 points
YAK9-U: 3 points
P-51D: 4 points
190D-9: 4 points
F4U-1D: 3 points
109G-10: 4 points
P-38L: 3 points
N1K2-J: 3 points
P-47D-30: 3 points


Synopsis on new perk values:

 This idea was presented during the discussion on the La-7, in a thread named "Community vote on the La-7".

 Perking the 10 suggested late war planes would shift the MA into a mid/late 1943 environment.

 The F4U-1, P-51B, La-5FN, and the P-47D11 will be the four fastest fighters at low alts at military power, and F4U-1, P-51B, LA-5, Fw190A-8 would be the four fastest on WEP.

 There's a much bigger chance to see people using various fighters, which before, have been ignored by a lot of average pilots for the reason that they weren't fast or maneuverable enough against 1944~'45 planes.

 The survivability of the P-47s(which was a significant fighter in reality and yet, have massive disadvantages under current MA conditions) will be vastly enhanced. Since some of the 'super ground attackers' with 2k payload + rockets, have been suggested to be perked, it would earn a major role as a fast ground attacking fighter-bomber.

 The N1K2 fans will probably just move on to Spit9s. We'll be seeing a lot less N1K2s, but more Spitfires. However, the Spitfire does not have 4 cannons - The main reason of contempt for the N1K2 lies in the fact that it is a superbly maneuvering fighter(equal to Spit9) with average speed performance, equipped with  900 rounds of 20mm ammo with four cannons.

 The P-51D fans would shift to the P-51B.. which has a little less ammo load, and weaker jabo capabilities. We'll definately see less whinings about 'cowardly runstangs' who come in at 20k to do a single bomb drop and run straight home after. The P-51B is a magnificent fighter, but it is definately more limited than the P-51D.

 The F4U-1 corsair will also start to shine out, but it will of course, be limited in jabo capabilities as with the case of the P-51B, compared to the C-hog and the D-hog.

 La-7 fans can comfortably ride the La-5FN, since it shares simular characteristics with the La-7, and is still among the fastest non-perked planes. However, the speed difference between other fighters will be less than the case of La-7: meaning, it'd require some more careful flying. You can't out accelerate everything else and just run straight away. The smaller margin of speed/acceleration differences makes the La-5FN a dedicated fighter, but nothing like what the La-7 is in current MA conditions.

 Also, some planes which only a few people rode just for kicks, might come into real recognition: such as the Bf109G-2, Bf109G-6, Fw190A-5, Fw190A-8, C.205.. which will be vastly enhanced in survivability and versatility. More variety IMO, definately can be expected. I would not want to take out a Fw190A-5 or a Bf109G-2 when I would have to face vast numbers of P-51Ds or N1K2s or La-7s. My choice would be the Fw190D-9 or the Bf109G-10. However, if my opposition is Spit9s, P-51Bs, P-47D-11s and La-5FNs.. taking out the Fw190A-5, A-8 or the 109G-2 would be a cool choice.

 The Bf109G-10, Fw190D-9, Yak-9U are high performance late war planes, and the reason for them being perked is almost self explanatory.

 The Typhoon as a perk would be puzzling for many, but in the matters of balance(virtually a non-perked, little bit slower Tempest) it is definately a perk material with my new suggested agenda. Quad Hispanos, superbly fast, more than 2000lbs Jabo loadouts. Also, it is to my knowledge, a 1944 Typhoon we have, which has solved almost all of the problems known in 1942 Typhoons.

 Another distinctly positive changes we can expect with the suggested new perks, is that some jabo planes which people have totally neglected before, have a chance to become a very appealing jabo choice, since the planes that were very fast+carried huge bomb loads, will be perked.

 Planes like the Mosquito and the Bf110G-2, Fw190F-8 might be able to get more usage as the preferred jabo ride of choice. As with the new suggested perks, those planes carry the heaviest bomb loads. When the 10 late war planes are perked, the Mossie and the 110, F-8 can all be considered pretty fast planes when it's main competition is not La-7s or P-51Ds.

 The 3~5 point perk price would also be adequate. It'd be a super cheap price for the 'experts' who have amassed massive perks, and it would not really bother them from riding their favored rides. It is not a very heavy burden for average/low-skilled pilots, either. Work a bit with other fighters, and they'll achieve 3~10 points easily in a single day. They'll get a chance to ride better planes soon - and if they are shot down, it's definatley not as depressing as losing 30~100 perks in a single sortie.

 On the other hand, 3~5 points could be just enough 'sting' to stop overuse. We have seen what mere 8 points can do to the C-hog. Many of the 'small perk' planes.

 Currently, the difference between 'perked' and 'unperked' is "almost non existent" and "only few overly abundant".

 Effectively, the new perk values I suggest, can be said that it has three categories "highly perked", "lightly perked" and "unperked" - from this, I attempt to achieve the following:

1) rare super-planes remain rare

2) historically abundant, but high performance late war planes which sees almost exclusive use(P-51D, La-7, Fw190D-9 etc..), would be controlled in numbers.

3) majority of unperked planes which are early/mid war planes, which have been previously neglected(Bf109F-4, Fw190A-5, C.205, Yak-9T, La-5FN etc..), will be used a lot more.


 If those 10 fighters are newly perked, the planes people will use will have a speed range of 310~336mph range at deck speeds, where many many previously neglected planes can be used.

 With my suggested perk setup, I think we can see more variety, less whining, and satisfy the people who want to fly fast monster planes(perks relatively almost non-existant burden for the experts), people who want to fly planes they want without too much of a burden(low perks, low burden), and also the people who want some plane numbers regulated(3 perks is not too high, but still needs some work for the vast majority of average/low-skilled players who make up AH community - hoardes will be limited). Also, my suggestion will give some great expert jabo planes(Mossie, 110G-2, Fw190F-8, A-20 etc..) their role back in the MA - currently they have no place at all, since almost every USAAF/USN plane can carry loads of rockets+2000lbs payload.

 The one single problem is the P-38L, which doesn't have an earlier variant. With hopes that AH2 will introduce an earlier variant of the P-38, the P-38L will have to be perked also.

ps) Also, the survivability of bombers will go up a lot more.

 ...

Edit: The mistakes in the N1K2 cannons are corrected- Thx Karnak!
« Last Edit: May 22, 2003, 03:24:29 AM by Kweassa »

Offline Kweassa

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Note) My suggestion, however it may seem to others, is not an arbitrary one. It was carefully thought out, and I tried as hard as I could, to not show any "LW mentality" which some people might have negative responses against, as they would consider it "an attempt to neuter Alllied planes" - never, would I try to do something like that.

 For example, one of it's specific objectives was separating the 'pure fighter' role and the 'ground attack role' - which in current MA, is all mixed up.

 Most of the high performance, late war fighters(particularly USN/USAAF),  are also all the best ground attackers. They carry huge loads of ordnance, and yet, after it is dumped, they can immediately switch to a fighter role. It is an admirable aspect, but that aspect also negates the very existence of some wonderful planes specialized in jabo roles. Why use a clumsy jabo plane you can take one plane and do everything?

 A by-product of that idea, is that it would help solve the 'suicidal jabo' problem. A suicidal jabo mentality, IMO, derives from the fact that according to current structural durability settings, people start to think that "I might die, but if I can only get this one run on target, it'll kill the target" - thousands of pounds of loadouts on a single fighter plane, no doubt provokes such thinking, since about 2000~3000 pounds kill structures. Two suicidal runs, and they can kill a hangar. 6 suicidal planes, and a small field is closed. Though kamikaze death is not pleasant, if they only have to do it twice, than they might consider it "an expendable risk".

 But what if perks on late war planes with very heavy loadouts are introduced? Will they still think that way? Experiences with light perks, as maybe seen in CT setups, show that if there is a perk, albeit a light one, people try to survive - not as hectic as trying to survive in 100~200 point planes, but still they try.

 2~3 kamikaze runs with a perked plane with a heavy loadout, will cost them 6~9 perk points. Would average players still consider that 'expendable'?

 But what if they try to do the same thing in expendable, unperked  planes? Unlike the newly suggested perk planes, almost all of them have limited loadouts. For the most, 500lbs bombs is the max they can take. In some USN/USAAF planes, a bit more. It's going to take a lot of kamikaze runs for them to achieve anything. Also, the unperked planes are slower than perked ones - easier to intercept during their trip to the target.

 I have high hopes that it will effectively reduce the 'kamikaze' aspect which some people hate, in the MA.


...

This perk list, in its original form, was suggested in the thread "Community vote on the La-7"

 Here are some of the responses to the post, and my responses:

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Oboe: "if you do that without perking the Spit IX, P-51, N1K, I think you'd just encourage the LA-7 drivers into the next best ride; and then we'd have to have the same discussion again about a different plane."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- This is true, oboe, but let's consider the 'next best planes', in the case of the 'perk list' I've suggested.

 The 'next best rides', in this case, are much more 'balanced' with lesser performing planes than when the late-war planes were unperked.

 As I posted above, the P-51B, F4U-1, La-5FN, P-47D-11 are the fastest non-perked planes at low alts with military power, and the P-51B, F4U-1, La-5FN, Fw190A-8 are the fastest planes with wep. Of the five plane types, only one plane can be considered both 'fast' and 'maneuverable' (La-5FN).

 The P-51B is a versatile fighter, but more limited in ammo load, firepower, and jabo capabilities.

 The F4U-1 is also a great plane, but it definately isn't a like the La-7 or Yak-9U, which has almost every attribute in the top class.

 P-47D-11, limitations are almost too clear..

 and the Fw190A-8.. can also be simular to the P-47D-11.. heavy plane that needs lot of practice and effort to learn.

 The only plane that vaguely shadows the 'super planes' of 1944~'45, is the La-5FN... but definately easier to fight than the La-7 or the Yak-9U.



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Shane:"...exactly, you'd be putting "noobs" at even more of a disadvantage. "
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- To apply a reverse logic, then would you suggest that if noobs have better planes, they'd have a fair chance against experts? Seeing many many statements from the experts in the forums it seems they always claim they can shoot down any noob in any plane whatever they fly.

 'Noobs' suck in whatever planes they are in anyway. Besides, people who have a lot of perk points which can be thrown around , aren't really that many. As always, the majority is always 'average' or 'underskilled'.

 Basically noobs will die against experts anyway whatever they fly in, and the real majority of their combat is against other noobs or average pilots.

ps) also, one other factor that should be considered, is the initially low perk prices. 3 points.. as an average pilot myself, earning 3 points takes a bit of effort in my case.. have to shoot down about 3~4 planes a sortie to get 3 points quick. Generally, people are sensitive about losing points. 3 points, IMO, is enough to regulate 'hoardes', but not too much demanding like the 70 point Tempy or the 200 point 262.

 also, people will feel less attracted to a 3 point plane, when compared to 60~200 point perk planes. Besides, if the perks are applied in current condition, in most cases, the icons won't give away the plane type for the 3 point perked planes.. except maybe in the case of the P-38L(no other P-38 variant) or the La-7(icon specified as 'La7')

Offline ramzey

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u have my vote,
all sounds resonable and give more "adrenaline" to game
anyway not finish kamikadze flying

som add
-c205 have big amno load for cannons and should be perked too
-p38 dunno, it big trg with huge load

ramzey

Offline Ike 2K#

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I hope HTC is listening.

Offline Karnak

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Minor correction:

The N1K2-J is not armed with the Ho-5.  That was an Imperial Japanese Army cannon.

The N1K2-J is armed with four Type 99 Model II Mk 4 cannon.
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Offline bozon

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I LIKE IT! :cool:

suddenly you'll see A20, mossies, 110 and 190F8 in jabo roles. Also I belive that even a perk value of 1 would reduce the suicide attacks. People would fly extra low perk planes quite a lot but would be more carfull with them.

I'd even like to see such a thing done in the current MA, AH2 or not AH2.

Bozon
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Offline Naso

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Quote
Originally posted by ramzey
som add
-c205 have big amno load for cannons and should be perked too
 


I dont understand why perk the 205, it's a medium '43 fighter, have no special attributes, and is underused.

For Kweassa's proposal, I agree 100%.

:)

Offline bigjava

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I AGREE  Kweassa !!

I Agree with naso too about 205.....
  getting  Perks to airplane not for guns or rate of fire but distinguish planes according to the year of manufacturing, also that we, the italians,  got only 2 airplanes, if u perk the 205 i outta go in bicycle all the time   ;)


so i think it would be nice setting, in MA, the Kweassa's perk list but not to all time long
 
 2 weeks monthly:

That may produce a split in MA using......:rolleyes:
2 weeks during Which we  are going to see more pilots getting mid-early planes :D, and 2 weeks Which we are going to have a MA as we have now  :cool:
« Last Edit: May 22, 2003, 06:38:37 AM by bigjava »

Offline oboe

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I hope HTC takes a look at this idea, too.    I like a lot about this idea, for a couple of reasons:

1) Making planes cost something to fly will reduce their usage in the arena, as players choose the next best "free" ride.   Variety should increase in the MA and the early-mid war planes will be more survivable.

2) With the current perk planes reduced in cost and the addition of lightly perked planes, there will be more pilots flying perked planes.   More pilots will know the tension and excitement that comes with really risking something of value when you fly.   I know I sweat bullets when I up a Spit XIV in the MA, but that's part of why I choose to fly it.

IMO though, it will be a huge problem to leave the Spit IX unperked.   As it is now, the Spit IX is one of a group of 4 planes that account for 40-50% of the MA kills, tour after tour.   Perking the other 3 and leaving the Spit IX free will push most of those flyers into the IX, and in addition many others who will now choose it as the most competitive free ride.    I wouldn't be surpised if the Spit IX accounts for 50-60% of all MA kills during a tour where this plan was in place.

Don't get me wrong; I like everything else about the idea.   It just seems to me you have something of a blind spot when it comes to the Spit IX.   Add the IX to the lightly perked category and I think it's a real winner.

Offline bozon

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spit 9 is a mid-war plane. There's no excuse for perking it exept for over-use and I'm against that.

It doesn't have unbalancing features like extra speed or quad connon with 250 rpg or unbelivable bomb load. It's pretty good overall and easy to fly, but rather slow and with low ammo load that forbids spaying. It will not satisfy the La7/dora/p51 freaks, they will choose one of the faster rides as their none-perk and upgrade back to their speed demons from time to time.
The N1k pilots would most likly be the ones migrating to the spit or C205 or even the zeke.

btw, I find the spit9 easier to fight then the spit5 or the niks.

It's a good glorious and fun plane not much to be done about that.

Bozon
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Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
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Offline Batz

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2003, 09:27:46 AM »
umm this forum is  Aces High II: Tour of Duty

As you all know AH2 will be comprised of 2 types of gameplay. Aces High II: Tour of Duty will be  mission based arean and Aces High 2 classic will be the same as the current main. Any requests for general gameplay changes for the "main" should be in the Gameplay forum.

This forum seems to be getting cluttered with general feature requests that have little or nothing to do with Aces High II: Tour of Duty.

I guess the best thing to do is request a General AH2 gameplay forum be opened.

But Kweassa is correct and using the perk system to enhance gameplay is a good idea. The perk system is very limited now and I know guys that have nearly 10000 perks and have little interest in flying the current crop of perk planes.

Not to be a forum Nazi its just I care more about Aces High: Tour of Duty then I do about AH2: Classic. Its getting hard to follow whats going on. I have been posting in this forum since it opened. A guy new to the Forum may have trouble understanding that AH2 will have 2 distinct forms of gameplay.

It may be easier on everyone if Pyro started another forum to help folks keep in mind that AH2: Tour of Duty is something different then the current main type gameplay. Folks also need to know that if they prefer AH main gameplay as is then nothing will have changed except the art.

Offline ramzey

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2003, 10:59:00 AM »
hands off from spitfire or i start lobbing to perk c205 and c202:) :D

ramzey

Offline oboe

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2003, 11:16:25 AM »
LOL Ramsey.  I'm just sayin'!

Its true, the SPit IX is mid-war, but its just all around one of the best planes; it's able to stand up well against the late-war 51Ds, N1Ks, and LA-7s.     Leave it unperked while perking the others, and you already know what will happen.
 

;)

Offline 2Hawks

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That suggestion for a point system...
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2003, 11:42:26 AM »
Would go a long way to encourage ppl to land their planes too. Also, I noticed that flying the older planes gave me a greater appreciation and skill in handling the newer planes.

HTC you got your ears on?

2Hawks.

Offline Rutilant

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For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2003, 02:05:09 AM »
Got my vote! (But stay away from the Hurricanes!!)

Sure the most used version (IIC) has quad 20mms (with limited ammo), turns tighter than most anyplane in the MA and.. um.. whatever else it has goin for it, it's speed is enough to take it down to average or below even..



Away! get away! :D