Author Topic: These FM's are so realistic it make ya kinda sick...  (Read 540 times)

Offline Ripsnort

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These FM's are so realistic it make ya kinda sick...
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2000, 03:11:00 PM »
One of the back issues of (I believe)Flight Journal has  a write up by Ethell when he flew the F4U, I don't recall him squeaking alot about the torque, I'll have  to do some research...

I could ask the real CO of VMF-323, he resides in Florida, talked to him via email, I'm sure he wouldn't mind responding to any F4U questions, I would like a list of things to ask him so he doesn't have to para-phrase himself...

Offline jedi

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These FM's are so realistic it make ya kinda sick...
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2000, 07:13:00 PM »
As requested:

Maj Hugh Elwood (VMF-212)--

"The Corsair was a hell of a thing to fly, particularly if you'd started on a much lighter aircraft.  It had so much torque that when you poured the coals to 2800 rpm, it would try to walk away from you.  You had to have full rudder on there in order to keep control.  The F4U had a very large cockpit, so much so that the shorter guys could not hold their rudder all the way in to counteract the torque.  Some pilots used to fly with a cushion--one of my pilots, Lt Hap Langstaff, used to have two of them in there in order to be able to push the rudder pedals further forward."

Account of W. Buckner Hanner (VMF-123)--

"...All landings, whether actually on an aircraft carrier, or at a shore base, were executed in a carrier-approach style for practice and consistency.  A nose-high descent in a left-hand turn brought the Corsair to its final approach.  On the base leg of the pattern, just before turning on final approach, Hanner remembers looking out to the left to make sure no other traffic was still on the runway.  Then, when the big-nosed F4U turned onto final, the runway was obscured from view, leaving Hanner to pray "God, I hope there's nobody on that runway!"  During the pattern approach, Hanner would be cranking in a total of 20 degrees right rudder trim, balancing this with a rudder pedal offset to the left.  But the 20-degree input was vital, he says, in the event of a go-around, whether at sea or on land.  Without that right rudder trim, the massive addition of power needed for a go-around could very well put the Corsair on its back in a vicious--and usually fatal--roll to the left from torque."

As Wells points out above, it's possible to generate torque in excess of the ailerons' ability to counter the rolling moment at approach speed.  When you add in the effects of p-factor, slipstream over the tail surfaces, and the amount of wing "blown" by the Hog's large prop, the situation is worsened.  If you allow the airplane to yaw, as it will with a rapid, unchecked power application, it will induce a further rolling moment.  If you then allow the airplane to start rolling rapidly, you will have to deal with INERTIA as well to DECELERATE the roll, (a factor usually forgotten, but potentially deadly) and you'll be even farther into a "torque deficit."

OTOH, if you counter your power application with the rudder, and allow the plane to accelerate before full power is achieved, you'll be able to handle it.  So sure, the actual "culprit" may be improper throttle technique, but the corrective action depends on the ability to quickly achieve (and HOLD) full rudder deflection.  Throw in the fact that the stall speed of a steeply banked aircraft is much higher than in level unbanked flight, and you have even more reason not to allow that roll to develop in the first place.  Having enough aileron to "roll out" does you no good if the wings are stalled at 50 feet. Inasmuch as the rudder trim assists you in achieving full rudder deflection, and makes it "easier" to hold it against the various forces you're up against, it should be fairly intuitive that using the rudder trim is more than just a good "technique."

But this isn't about rudder trim, it's about torque-modeling.  I'm convinced the Hog was NOT a plane where you could just mash full power with NO rudder on takeoff roll OR at 100 mph on approach and watch it fly blithely along undisturbed    I'm convinced its real pilots thought much the same.

I'm not slamming the AH FM by any means, but I'm also not predisposed to defend it just because I like the sim or its developers (which I do BTW).  Take the AH Hog out for a takeoff.  Ram the throttle up to full.  It will VERY mildly tend to the left slightly.  Tapping the rudder will correct it.  Now get airborne, slow to 100 mph, and slam the throttle in again.  NOTHING "bad" will happen at all, with or without rudder use.

IMO that fails to capture the "character" of the airplane.  If that's "acceptable" for playability reasons, I have no argument with it.  OTOH, if the objective IS to get the "feel" of the individual planes "right," then IMO the torque issue needs to be revisited.  Simply constructive criticism, and hopefully received as such.

I leave it to others whether the same holds true for the other planes as well.

--jedi  

Offline Citabria

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These FM's are so realistic it make ya kinda sick...
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2000, 07:50:00 PM »
well said  

torque is a very big feature in plane modelling and the f4u no longer has it modeled.

the massive gyroscopic effect from hamfisting in the power dosn't show up in the flight model so the f4u never has and still will not torq over onto its back at low speed when slamming in the throttle

dont get me started on the typhoons torque  
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline Citabria

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These FM's are so realistic it make ya kinda sick...
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2000, 08:24:00 PM »
it just hit me like a ton of bricks...

perhaps torque modelling on the planes is all good ...

yes on all of them


but the problem arises when there is no noticeable reaction from power changes.

ever used a high power drill?
you can really see the effects of the power change when you pull the trigger from just slightly rotating to full power.

this would explain a great many things if this aspect of "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" is not modelled in Aces High.

and it apears that it is not
or if it is it has been seriously dumbed down because every single engined plane can be hamfisted from no power to full throttle with no adverse effect.
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline Andy Bush

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These FM's are so realistic it make ya kinda sick...
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2000, 08:27:00 PM »
jedi

I agree with your thoughts on torque modeling in the current AH FM...

I have pilot manuals for the F4U as well as the P-51, P-47, and P-40. They all list trim settings in their 'Before Takeoff' sections but do not mention any in the 'Before Landing' sections. But all in the 'Go-Around' sections do give maximum power settings to be adhered to as well as warnings about rapid throttle advancement.

Given the danger of inadequate rudder input during a rejected landing, I'm surprised that more is not said about rudder and/or rudder trim. The P-51 manual does mention trim in the go-around but only as a 'clean up' step after the power has been advanced.

This is not a situation unique to WW2 fighters. I now fly the DC-9 and proper rudder use is a mandatory part of our annual simulator training. The rudder must be correctly applied during an engine failure on takeoff to prevent the aircraft from potentially rolling inverted. I've had an engine fail right at liftoff on a max power, max gross weight takeoff in real life...I was pleasantly surprised to see that the 'real thing' was not as hairy as it was in the sim.

BTW...in real life, we don't trim the rudder out of alignment just because something might happen. The pilot in your second example may have as a matter of personal technique.

You might mention that bank angle is only relevant to stall speed when the pilot is using the ground as a reference...ie, he is trying to maintain altitude. Otherwise, bank angle has nothing to do with stall speed.

Andy

Offline jedi

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These FM's are so realistic it make ya kinda sick...
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2000, 08:50:00 PM »
Yep Andy, I forgot about the maintaining level flight part on the bank angle thing.

As for the use of the rudder trim for landing, in the Learjet, if we had an engine out, we ALWAYS trimmed half rudder into the good engine and left it that way until on the ground, even though that might require the use of "wrong" rudder on final with the power back.  You simply didn't want to have to deal with the asymmetric thrust unaided in the event of a go around.  It was definitely sufficient to roll the plane inverted, and holding your leg against the yaw got pretty tiring pretty quickly.

OTOH, in the C-130, we fly engine-out with some rudder trim, but retrim to neutral once on the glidepath.  In the C-21, the manual did not specify the mandatory use of rudder trim, but everyone used it.  The airplane was somewhat dangerous at low speed on one engine.  In the 130, the manual does not require rudder trim to be used, and some do and some don't but it DOES require it to be neutral for landing (due to the directional control problems associated with the props going into the ground range and reverse asymmetrically).

So it's probably peculiar to each airplane.  If the plane was susceptible to high roll/yaw rates at low speed/high power, I suspect the pilots would've used rudder trim.

--jedi

Offline Duckwing6

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These FM's are so realistic it make ya kinda sick...
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2000, 02:48:00 AM »
Another point in the AH modelling that makes it hardly possible to "refly" one of these Go around departures from controlled flight is the throttle response ..

The AH engines rect too slowly IMHO to throttle inputs, espeically if you slam the throttle from Idle to Full...
A normal piston engine would basically react instantly with a burst of power, whreas the AH engine "spools up" kindda like a jet engine...

DW6

Offline Torque

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These FM's are so realistic it make ya kinda sick...
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2000, 03:25:00 AM »
Why is everyone talking aboot me?