Author Topic: Freehost battle forges on...  (Read 685 times)

Thermo

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Freehost battle forges on...
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 1999, 10:43:00 PM »
Intersting quip back there.....

 "...It’s kind of like saying that If I work for a company and learn while I’m on the job, I can’t quit and start my own company and use some of the skills I learned...."

Most companies require engineers to sign such agreements as a pre-requisiste for employment. The agreement often goes further by the company laying claim to _anything_ that the engineer dreams up weather related to the company business or not, weather on or off the clock.

Also, often as terms of separation some companies require non-competitve agreements, whereby the engineer agrees not to start up a related business for a certain term.

JHL

Offline hitech

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« Reply #31 on: September 04, 1999, 09:32:00 AM »
Just rember the freehost issue is not about Rev Eng , or learning, or compitition.
It's about copywrite law of using a piece of software outside it's licensing agreement.If some want's to write both a FE and Host based on Rev Eng the communication format that would be normal rev eng. It's not protecting  knowledge that's the issue. The issue is using someone elses FE with a diffenent host.

HiTech

Rolo

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« Reply #32 on: September 04, 1999, 07:19:00 PM »
 
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There will allways be someone trying to copy what you are doing. If you got a patent you are "safe", but anyone can reverse engineer as much as they want as long as it does not infringe the patent. To my knowledge there is no *legal* issues about reverse engineering, unless this is either an infringement to the patent, or as a *signed* agreement with both parties, (a signed agreement of confinentiality). If they make infringement to the patent you can sue them, but it costs no matter how you look at it or what the outcome is.

Copyright and Patents are two very different things.  

Patents protect ideas.  You get a patent on post-it notes and you can sue people who manufacture self-stick notepads.  Even if they invented their notepads independently and without knowledge of post-its.  

Copyright protects expression.  To infringe a copyright you must actually copy the original work.  Thus, in the unlikely event that two people independently wrote the same novel, there would be no infringement if neither copied the other.

Copyright encompasses a number of rights including the rights to: reproduce, distribute, create derivative works, display and performance.  A copyright owner can license those rights to others and the license can be carved up into very specific rights.  

Have you ever noticed the notice at the beginning of a video tape that you rent saying that it is for home use and not public display?  That's the copyright owner protecting his/her display rights.  If you show that video tape in a theatre, you're liable for infringement.

Note that almost every piece of software you think you own is actually licensed.  A licensor can restrict the use of that licesne.  While there is some debate on the enforceability of "shrink wrap" licenses, reasonable restrictions are likely to be enforced, particularly if the software is provided without charge.

If a license restricts reverse engineering and you use your copy of the software for that purpose, you violate your license (some countries will not enforce a reverse engineering restriction).  It's not that there is a general ban on reverse engineering, it's whether you had the right to use the software to begin with.

There is also an issue of contributory infringement.  Does a freehost permit (an in fact encourage) the use of client software in a manner inconsistent with its license?  If so, the creator of such software could be liable for contributory infringement.

I'm not sure that the analogies that have been offered are helpful because copyright law is a world unto itself.  However, consider the following:  A company publishes a book for $34.95.  Another company, let's say Xerox, develops a device that allows people to create their own copies of the book for substantially less than  $34.95.  Should Xerox be liable when people make these cheap copies?  Probably not.  But what if Xerox's machine was useful for copying only that book and served no other purpose.  Well that's a different story.  

Rolo

Offline bod

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« Reply #33 on: September 05, 1999, 06:32:00 AM »
Thanks for the explanation rolo.

 
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Patents protect ideas. You get a patent on post-it notes and you can sue people who manufacture self-stick notepads. Even if they invented their notepads independently and without knowledge of post-its

This is not enterely right. Patents protects the inventors commersial interrests in an invention. It has to be a genuinly new idea to be patentable; a usable invention, and not only an obvious and/or unusable thing. Everyone can make as many copies as they want by using the "blue-prints", but you are not allow to sell them as stand alone units or as a part of something else.

Software are not patentable in general, since they are either some formulation of scientific principles or some abstract thing. However, software written for the purpose of making a specific car engine run, for instance, is also patentable since it is obviosly a part of the engine itself. The driver routines for a printer may be patentable, and also the bios code in a PC. (I guess IBM's mistake was that they patented the chip and/or the code, but not the interface, or only copyrighted the code).

For the example of the printer driver for a newly developed printer. If the code is copyright, you can joyfully reverse engineer your own drivers, and sell them (considering no license agreement). If it is patented, and it is a good patent   , you can copy and hack with the driver-code as much as you want, but you can not sell, or give away *anything* that can be used to drive the printer.

So, the obvious solution is that HiTech et al. make and patent a *hardware* "host computer bank" that does only two things: Serve as the only functional host for the FE's, and bills peoples credit cards. This server cannot operate without the FE.  

Woops, just by Writing that in a public place like this board i make it impossible for anyone (including me) to get such a patent approoved. Not that it was such a good one  


Bod

Rolo

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« Reply #34 on: September 05, 1999, 12:37:00 PM »
 
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This is not enterely right. Patents protects the inventors commersial interrests in an invention. It has to be a genuinly new idea to be patentable; a usable invention, and not only an obvious and/or unusable thing. Everyone can make as many copies as they  want by using the "blue-prints", but you are not allow to sell them as stand alone units or as a part of something else.


For general purposes, that is an accurate description.

 
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Software are not patentable in general

That used to be the case, but it isn't anymore.  The PTO is now granting a significant number of software patents.

 
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If the code is copyright, you can joyfully reverse engineer your own drivers, and sell them (considering no license agreement).

Assuming that you are doing true reverse engineering and not copying any code, this is probably true (again assuming no license against reverse engineering).

 
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If it is patented, and it is a good patent  , you can copy and hack with the driver-code as much as you want, but you can not sell, or give away *anything* that can be used to drive the printer.

Unlikely, as it would be impossible to divorce the driver from its underlying copyright.  Under the copyright act of 1976, copyright attached automatically even if the copyright is not registered.

 
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Woops, just by Writing that in a public place like this board i make it impossible for anyone (including me) to get such a patent approoved. Not that it was such a good one.


The fact that such systems already exist probably makes a better case against patentability. <G>

Rolo




[This message has been edited by Rolo (edited 09-05-1999).]

Offline bod

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« Reply #35 on: September 05, 1999, 04:22:00 PM »
 
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That used to be the case, but it isn't anymore. The PTO is now granting a significant number of software patents.

I know, but does not the software need to attached or used together with a spesific hardware device? Ten years ago there were not much software in a car engine or a TV set. Today these devises together with all kinds of other hardware devises (not to mention all the devices in planes) are literary packed with chips and software. This kind of software has only one function, and that is to make the device work as planned. Take the software out, and it does not work, as planned, or as described in any eventual patent.

A PC does not need a word processor to work, or more precisely; A word processor is not an integral part of a PC. Therefore it is not possible to patent a word processor-software that is to be used on a normal PC. The BIOS in the PC on the other hand is a typical piece of software that can be patented (too late know, but in general terms).

Also these pieces of software tends to be very generic in the way they are patented. It is often not the software itself that are patented (the code itself), but some idea of using software (embedded or othervise) as part of a process to make something possible that would not be possible without the use of software. By *not* making it generic you would restrain yourself very much, which is very often not a particularly good idea.


 
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Unlikely, as it would be impossible to divorce the driver from its underlying copyright. Under the copyright act of 1976, copyright attached automatically even if the copyright is not registered.
I'm sure you are right, but i was only trying to show that you don't do any infringement to the patent.

 
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The fact that such systems already exist probably makes a better case against patentability.

They do?


Bod

Offline brendo

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« Reply #36 on: September 06, 1999, 02:00:00 AM »
I only just found this thread, but I had to put in my 2 cents. Warbirds has to be the only game where you can spend $1000.00 and yet have the company deny you the right of offline play. I can play Quake2 or 3 as much as I like, yet I only EVER paid $70 to ID co.

Yeager raves on about stealing.... the only theft is that I pay (and still pay) so MUCH money for Warbirds. If itmo ran a sever with 100 players then I would be upset. But letting four people play h2h with each other for free it not stealing at all. More like wetting ones appritite for online fun.

I fly WB for the BIG TIME community action. I'll be looking foward to the same in Aces High.

dakota

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« Reply #37 on: September 06, 1999, 11:28:00 AM »
Time to let this die.

I am a chef. I have been on national tv.
Our restaurant is famous for an old  family cheese sauce recipe. Everyone who has worked for me and even my past employers have "copied" the recipes! They have it, they try to promote it, BUT ITS NEVER GOING TO BE THEIRS. Thats why it never is successful for them.
I will follow hi-tech to AH because he WAS-IS
Warbirds as I found it and enjoyed it.
Its his direction of the "Ideal Sim" that makes them what they are. Copies will only die.
So, who gives a rat about outdated version freehosts. Lets cheer on the guys who got us hooked and make us HAPPY to pay them money so we can enjoy the "Fruits of their visions and talents".  Enough


Janne Hakala

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« Reply #38 on: September 06, 1999, 11:53:00 PM »
Amen Dakota!

This subject is really needless...

Janne

Axeman

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« Reply #39 on: September 09, 1999, 02:44:00 PM »
To all freehost folks...Have fun and guilt ridden flying...
To Dakota...man your just as much of a stand up guy here as you are online in WB..
I salute you ....I will continue to highlight you while flying so watch out for you...bet you never knew you had a gaurdian angel...

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The 44TH SOS...If Ya See Us....IT'S TOO LATE!!!!

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« Reply #40 on: September 16, 1999, 06:24:00 PM »
i second that thought.

he really summed it up.

and by the way lawyers dont decide anything any more than a librarian writes books.  people and judges do.at least thet is what the contitution says